STATE OF THE POPULATION OF IRELAND
The Earl of Darnley then rose
to bring forward the motion, of which he
had given notice, for the appointment of a
Select Committee to inquire into the State
of the Distressed Population of Ireland.
He was aware that he could command but
little attention from their lordships, even
on a subject of the greatest importance;
but he felt, on the present occasion, that
he laboured under much greater difficulties
than usual, and nothing short of a sense
of paramount duty, could induce him to
trespass on their lordship's attention.
Among the difficulties under which he
laboured was that of bringing the leading
features of the subject under their lordship's
notice without fatiguing them with
extraneous matter. He had other
disadvantages also to contend against; one of
which was, the load of prejudices which
were engendered by the abuse of the Poor
laws in this country, which were carried
to such an excess, that the very mention
of the system was likely to expose him to
more warmth than the occasion required.
He deprecated as anxiously as any man
any extension of that reprobated system;
and he hoped he should be able to appease
the anger of his noble friend (the earl of
Limerick) when he stated, that it was far
from his intention to recommend the
English system of Poor laws, as applied
here at present, or even as founded on the
original intention of the statute of Elizabeth.
He was aware that by that statute,
two objects were contemplated; one of
which was to find employment for those
poor persons who were able to work, but
could not otherwise obtain it than by
applying to the parish. He was of opinion,
that if anything like this proposition was
extended to Ireland, the consequence
would be, that in the present unfortunate
state of that country, the whole of the
rental would be insufficient to meet that
object. With that opinion, he had no
idea of recommending a system of poor
laws, by which any assessment could be
made to enable the parishes to set to work
the people who might be in want of subsistence.
But there was another object contemplated
by the statute of Elizabeth,
namely, the relief of the "lame, impotent,
old, and blind, and such others being poor
and not being able to work." If, in the
course of his address, he was able to prove,
that the same description of people in Ireland
were in great numbers in a state of
utter destitution; that cases occurred daily,
in which life even was sacrificed for want
of an established provision for the poor, he
hoped their lordships would agree with
him, that it was incumbent upon them to
institute some inquiry into this important
subject. - He had been told, and with
some degree of truth, that the situation of
these persons had been already under
inquiry before committees of both Houses
of parliament. He was ready to admit
this; for it was impossible that any
committee could inquire into the state of
Ireland, without having their attention
called to the destitute and miserable
condition of the peasantry; but hitherto it had
only formed a subject of inquiry incidentally.
It had not come before the committees
eo intuitu, but merely as a branch
of the general investigation in which they
were engaged. It appeared to him, that
the humanity of the public in this country
had been too much directed to another
class of sufferers! What speeches had not
their lordships heard there and elsewhere!
What volumes had been circulated on the
misery of the slave-population of the West
Indies! These friends of humanity were,
indeed, so urgent with the claims of the
negroes, that they overlooked the injustice
likely to accrue to private property, and he
was satisfied, that their premature endeavours
to meliorate the condition of the slaves,
instead of producing any beneficial result,
would be the source of the greatest possible
misfortunes to all the parties interested in
that question. - He would therefore beg
leave to call the attention of their lordships
to the distresses of a numerous class of
persons much nearer home, and much
dearer to this country than any slave population
abroad. God forbid he should
undervalue the blessings of liberty! The
Irish peasantry were certainly in possession
of that inestimable blessing; but otherwise
they were in a worse situation than the
slave in the West Indies. Their wretchedness
was more squalid; their houses, their
clothes, and their food, were worse than
those of any population on the surface of
the globe. No doubt this wretched people
had the liberty of propagating their race.
They had the liberty also of locomotion,
of which they availed themselves to a
pretty large extent. Now, he wished
particularly to draw noble lords attention to
this part of the subject. A noble earl
(Limerick) had told them, that he drew all
his resources from Ireland. Now his (lord
Darnley's) means were drawn nearly equally
from the two countries; but he spoke
advisedly, when he protested, that unless
there was a great amelioration in the
condition of the Irish population, if the wish
lately uttered by a gallant admiral (sir J.
Yorke) were accomplished, that Ireland
were submerged, in the ocean, he should
be in a much better situation, in reference
to his income, than he should be if measures
of improvement were not taken with
regard to that country. - When he was
drawn aside to this digression, he was
stating that the liberty of locomotion
remained to the Irish peasantry; and they
exercised it daily more and more, to the
injury of the people of this country. He
was anxious to have ascertained the number
of passengers brought to England from
Ireland during the last three years. He
had found, however, that it was almost
impossible to obtain such a return. But
their lordships would, no doubt, take it for
granted, that there was an excessive influx
of Irish into this country, by means of the
steam-vessels. If the emigration to this
country rapidly increased as he feared it
would, unless prevented, the inevitable
consequence would be, the amalgamation
of the misery of the two countries. The
Irish peasantry would find their way to
England, and live on the English poor-
rates, and the consequence would be, that
they would undersell the English peasant
in his only commodity - labour, in his own
market, and by lowering the rate of wages,
reduce him to the same state of misery
that prevailed throughout Ireland. In the
report of the emigration committee, this
opinion was stated very strongly; and it
was supported by the evidence taken before
the committee of inquiry into the state of
Ireland. It was satisfactorily shewn [shown?]
by that report, that no other result could
ensue from the continuation of the present
state of things, but the permanent deterioration
of the price of English and Scotch
labour: that the daily increased communication
between the two shores could not be
viewed without alarm: that the numbers
removing from Ireland were constantly on
the increase, and that a great change must
follow in the character of the labouring
classes in this country: that it was clear,
that two such different states could not
co-exist in the two countries, and that one
of two results was unavoidable; either the
condition of the Irish peasantry must be
raised to that of the English, or the condition
of the English peasantry must be
depressed to that of the Irish. The same
opinion had been expressed in various
publications; one of which he held in his
hand. He alluded to the "Letters on the
State of Ireland," by Dr. Elmore, who had
attempted to establish a manufactory in
that country; but, for want of security,
was obliged to withdraw his capital. This
gentleman had done him the honour to
address the letters to him, and in so doing,
had paid him a compliment he was
conscious he did not deserve. Though he
did not agree in some of the propositions in
these letters, he recommended the pamphlet
to the attention of their lordships, as
containing a great deal of useful information.
The noble earl read the following passage: -
"The irresistible tide of emigration from
Ireland towards these countries has already
set in, and has been materially facilitated
by steam navigation, so much so that the
credulity of the most ignorant will soon
be convinced that six or seven millions
of people, with all their natural powers
and great energies of mind, will not much
longer suffer without making an effort to
find better quarters. Every year it is
ascertained, that increasing thousands are
coming over, and in a short time it is to
be apprehended that, driven by want, and
aided as they now are by the subscriptions
of the richer classes in Ireland, they will
come over in hordes, like the Goths and
Vandals of other times, and make a settlement
in this country, where they hope
their labour will be duly rewarded, and
from which no act of parliament will be
able to dislodge them. By competition
for employment they will defeat every
humane effort to keep up the present
condition of the labourers of England. Their
necessities will oblige them to work for
half the usual wages of labour in this
country; the English workman must either
work for the same rate, or he will not get
employment; he is thus thrown on the
poor-rates for parish allowance, and in this
way is the burthen of supporting the Irish
poor put upon the parishes."
It would inevitably happen, if this system
went on, that the rent of the Irish
landlord would be paid out of the English
poor-rates. He, as an Irish landlord, did
not wish for any such result; but speaking
as he ought to do when addressing their
lordships, who were almost all landed
proprietors, and whether in England or
Ireland, all equally interested in this part
of the question, he would say, it was
established beyond all doubt, that a
communication equal to a bridge was now
existing between the two countries. It
was quite impossible, therefore, unless
they raised the Irish peasantry to the
level of the English, that an amalgamation
of misery should not take place between
them. He believed the only remedy in
their lordship's power was to endeavour, if
they could possibly do it, to raise the Irish
peasantry to the condition of the English;
but, as he had already stated, he had no
intention to recommend any assessment
on the landed property of Ireland to give
the poor employment. Yet the condition
of that part of the population of Ireland
was exceedingly wretched - their distress
was so abject, that they were reduced to
the lowest stage of degradation of which
human nature was capable. It defied any
powers he possessed to make their lordships
acquainted with the extent of the
misery of a large proportion of the Irish
poor. - The noble earl then read several
extents from the evidence of Dr. Doyle
before the committee of the House of Commons,
detailing the wretched condition of
the lower orders of the people in his diocese.
The noble earl said, he might also make
quotations from the works of Wilson and
others, on this subject; but it would be
disgusting, he apprehended, to their lordships
to enter into further particulars of
the wretched state of the great mass of
the Irish population. Their lordships had
heard it described by persons the best
acquainted with the facts. The Irish
peasantry were not now suffering the
extremity of distress. They were enjoying
their halcyon days; for a man and his
wife now lived for three farthings a
day. In the county of Limerick, a stone
of potatoes might be purchased for three
farthings; and in addition, it fortunately
happened that the price of bacon was very
high. The Irish labourer could not only live
well by the plenty of potatoes; but he could
sell the pig he fattened on them at a high
price. These, therefore, were the best of
times for him. Their lordships had, doubtless,
all heard the old story of the Irish peasant,
who told his visitor who objected
to the presence of the pig in the house,
that he had the best right to be there, as
he paid the rent. It was notorious that
the Irish peasantry paid their rents and
taxes by the sale of their pigs. - He came,
the, to consider what remedy should be
applied to the evil. Government had, to
a certain degree, given their sanction to
the only means of relief that had yet been
suggested. That emigration, if it could
be carried into effect, might produce some
partial relief, he would not deny. But it
appeared to him, that the system of
emigration recommended by the committee of
the House of Commons was more likely to
be advantageous to this country than to
Ireland. It might operate, and he believed
it had operated, in certain parishes,
to relieve the pressure of the poor-rates.
It had done so in Sussex and also in
Kent. He had been informed by a
respectable magistrate of that country, that
by means of a loan he had advanced on
the poor-rates of one of the parishes, the
Vestry had been enabled to export no less
than eighty individuals. This was the
case of an agricultural parish, not very
populous, on the borders of Sussex. The
effect had been, that the parish was now
enabled to maintain its poor with ease,
and give them constant employment;
while it was making provision to repay
the advance on its poor-rates. But when
he came to consider what was the
recommendation of the committee, and contrasted
it with the amount of the population
of Ireland, it was evidently futile.
The utmost extent of the recommendation
of the committee was, that at the expense
of 1,140,000l., in three years, there might
be exported only ninety-six thousand individuals,
men, women, and children.
Now the population of Ireland was not
less than eight millions. Assuming it had
increased to that number, six millions
were probably in the state of distress he
had described. He would take it, however,
at seven millions, and would suppose that
five millions only were unemployed poor.
Suppose, then, the emigration scheme were
applied to Ireland, what would be the
result? That in three years, a fiftieth
part would be removed. Could anybody
doubt that the vacancy caused by the
removal of these persons would be immediately
filled up? On this part of the
subject he would refer to the publication
of Mr. Sadler, on Ireland. From the
extract he would read, their lordships
would find that, by a law, which it was
impossible to control, the increase of
population took place in an increasing
ratio, as the numbers of the people
diminished; and it followed, that the more
they unpeopled Ireland, the more rapidly
the population would increase: - "Ireland,
therefore, is no exception to the true
principle of human exercise - a principle
which, no more than the one that it
opposes, can ever remain inert, and, like
that, may be 'known by its fruits.' It
dictates to the feelings, and prompts the
exertions, of all who receive it. Demonstrably
true, even as it respects Ireland,
so it holds forth the most instructive lesson
as it regards that country. It teaches
those who have to do with its affairs, or
who wish to dictate to and intermeddle
with those that have, a far surer, as well
as a happier method, of serving and blessing
that country, than either transporting the
people, driving them from their farms,
deserting them in their distresses, or
diminishing their numbers by any plans of
cruelty or oppression, ancient or modern.
It proves the utters futility of all such
attempts; the same as it respects the
Irish, and, indeed, all other people, as it
was with the Israelites, who 'the more
they were afflicted, the more they multiplied
and grew; and that the way of
diminishing those already made, by the
deserters and enemies of their country.
As this true principle of human increase
is understood and prevails, feelings of
confidence in an all-sufficient Providence
will be strengthened; and of cordial
affection for our fellow creatures revived;
and benevolence no longer paralysed by
the influences of the contrary theory, will
renew its wonted exertions in behalf of (sic)
human beings, in the way God and nature
have heretofore dictated and blessed. Even
policy itself may at length be pleased to
think, that what it never can, and nature
perpetually does, regulate, may be regulated
for the best; and dropping its dread of
population, concede at length, that to do
justly and love mercy, is the best and
safest course for nations, as well as
individuals; and that the surest ways to
preserve a people in peace and quietness, is
to give them a permanent interest in the
institutions of their country."
In corroboration of this principle, the
noble earl stated a series of calculations,
by which it appeared, that in the province
of Ulster, where the population of Ireland
was most dense, the number of inhabitants
to every square mile being two hundred
and fifty-one, the population from 1813
to 1821, had increased at the rate of
eleven per cent; in Leinster, the next in
density, the number to each square mile
was two hundred and sixteen, and the rate
of increase sixteen per cent; in Munster,
the number to each square mile was two
hundred and four, and the rate of increase
twenty per cent; and in Connaught, the
least in density, the number to each square
mile was one hundred and sixty-two, and
the rate of increase twenty-eight per cent.
The making of roads and bridges was a
mode of employing the population to a
certain extent; but it must always be very
partial in its effect. Neither did he
consider it was much in the power of government
to give relief to the unemployed
poor. It must be sought from other
sources. It was however in the power of
individuals to do something; and he was
quite sure that every noble lord who had
property and influence in Ireland would
see the necessity of spending some part
of his income, in alleviating the misery of
that part of the population who were upon
his estate. The only way in which this
misery could be effectually alleviated was,
by giving occasional employment to those
who were unable to procure it for themselves.
It was notorious to every one who
was acquainted with Ireland, that an overwhelming
proportion of her population
was totally without employment between
sowing and harvest. This was a permanent
evil, and totally distinct from those
dreadful scenes which they had all
witnessed in times of scarcity. But he had
stated, that the only remedy for Ireland
was to give employment to her population;
and the only means by which this
could be effected was the diffusion of
capital throughout the country. It was anticipated
by all those who advocated the
consequences of that measure. But they
had been disappointed; and why? Because
Mr. Pitt had never been able to
carry another measure, which there could
be no doubt he contemplated. It was
perfectly notorious, though he had heard
it contradicted in that House, that Mr.
Pitt contemplated the success of that great
measure; and Lord Camden had expressly
stated, that the settlement of the great
question of the Catholic claims was one
of the plans of those persons who bought
about the Union. Until all religious
distinctions were removed, and that question
was for ever set at rest, which had been, and
would continue to be, the bane of Ireland,
property would be insecure in that country,
and her inhabitants would remain in
their present unsettled and discontented
state. And what had been the result?
That no capitalist in his senses would trust
his money in such a country. He would
not enter further into this question, but
he should not have done his duty to the
miserable persons whose cause he was
advocating, if he had not told their lordships
that, until they did away with this irritation
and discontent, they could do no
good for Ireland; and that the only way
in which these feelings could be expelled
from the minds of the people of Ireland
was to grant those concessions which they
had so long pleaded for in vain. Any
other attempt at ameliorating the condition
of Ireland would, he was convinced, be
mere vanity; because any other attempt
would not afford that security to property
which would induce capitalists to embark
their property in the country, and this
was all that Ireland stood in need of.
The noble lord here read the evidence of
Mr. James Cropper, which was to the
effect, that not only was not English
capital sent to Ireland, but that Irish capital
was constantly transferred to England, in
consequence of the insecurity of property
in the former country. The noble lord
said, he had been informed, that Irish capital,
amounting to between 8,000,000l.
and 9,000,000l. was at that moment invested
in the English funds. Mr. Cropper
also stated it to be his opinion, that the
distrust arising from the Catholic question
was the cause of this insecurity of property
in Ireland; and he himself had been informed
that very day, that there were
millions of English capital ready to be
invested in Ireland, as soon as that question
was set at rest. Were their lordships then
to be told, that the poor of Ireland had
no interest in a question which, if settled,
would procure them employment, and the
means of comfortable subsistence? He
trusted that British capitalists would not
go to the remotest corners of the world in
search of investments for their money,
while Ireland, standing opposite their
shores, presented more inviting means of
employing it to advantage nearer home.
He would not fatigue their lordships much
longer; but he must endeavour to bring
under their consideration the fact, that in
Ireland there was a large proportion of
the population able and willing to work,
but altogether destitute of employment.
He trusted that their lordships would not
refuse an inquiry into this subject, because
it was surrounded by difficulties. He
confessed that there were many difficulties
in the way; but then he contended,
that he had made out a case so strong as
to justify him in calling upon their lordships
collectively as a legislative body, and
individually as landed proprietors, to agree
to the appointment of a committee, before
whom the evidence of persons best acquainted
with the subject might be taken.
In a pamphlet which had been lately
published, and which was entitled, "A
Report to the marquis Wellesley from
Elizabeth Fry and John Gurney," it
was suggested, as an expedient for the
amelioration of the condition of the Irish
people, that an extension of those
establishments which existed in Dublin, but
whose exertions had been cramped for
want of funds - he meant the Mendicity
associations - might be productive of
much good. It was suggested, that by
establishments of this nature, which should
be supported by voluntary subscriptions,
and aided, to a certain extent, by the
government, the poor would stand some
chance of being taken care of in sickness
and poverty. He thought the suggestion
worthy of consideration; but the point
which he wished to impress upon their
lordships was this - that, at present, there
was no provision whatever for the poor of
Ireland, except the bounty of their neighbours,
and that there had been numerous
instances of these unhappy persons having
perished from actual starvation. The
noble lord (Limerick) shaked his head,
and said, that such things had happened
in England; but, though such occurrences
might now and then have happened in the
metropolis and in towns, he defied the
noble lord to show him the possibility of
it happening in the country. By the
evidence of Mr. J. Marshall, who had erected
large works in Ireland, it appeared that
hundreds flocked to obtain employment;
that many of them had not tasted food
for two days; and that some of them were
so weak, that he was obliged to feed them
for six weeks before he could put them to
work. He himself knew of a set of
labourers who were put to work by subscriptions
last summer; and among them there
were some who were in such a state of
exhaustion, from want of food, that the
overseer stated that he was ashamed to
set them to work. - As he had before
stated, much good might be done by the
due attention of the landowners, whether
in or out of the country; and, if this applied
to the able-bodied, did it not, in a
ten-fold degree, apply to the aged and
inform? Though he had stated, and he
was sure he was addressing no one who
did not agree with him, that this was the
duty of every landowner in the country,
yet some of them did not perform that
duty at all, while others performed it but
very imperfectly. It was therefore his
wish to see if some means could not be
adopted, by which local contributions
should be insisted upon from the landowners,
in order to extricate their indignant
fellow-creatures from destruction. He
pledged himself to prove at the bar, if
necessary, the misery endured at Abbeyleix,
near the residence of a noble connection
of his own, lord of Vesci; and he
produced a paper which he styled part of the
Annals of a Village, giving a detail of a
number of wretched objects who had either
died through want, or disease consequent
upon it. These unhappy objects had been
able just to crawl to the neighbourhood of
that mansion, where they knew they should
be relieved; but, from absolute weakness
and sickness, had been unable to reach it.
This state of things was not confined to
one part of Ireland, for there were numbers
of parishes where the inhabitants had
expired in the open highway, from want
of the common necessaries of life:
"panem et aquam natura desiderat," but
they had not even bread and water. Was
it possible, then, that he was speaking in
a civilised and Christian country, when,
with these dreadful facts before their eyes,
he was told that he was opening a shop of
grievances? Why, Ireland had been a
bazaar, well stocked with grievances for
many years past. Was he speaking in an
assembly of Christians? He had found
their lordships, on a late occasion, very
anxious to declare themselves Christians;
and would they now see their fellow Christians
starving? Would their lordships call
themselves the followers of the benevolent
Jesus, who taught them to feed the hungry
and to clothe the naked, and who spent his
whole life in going about doing good, when
they refused to take this subject into
their consideration, because it was opposed
to the political notions of some
persons? He could not believe that that
House - Consisting as it did of landed
proprietors, many of whom derived the
comforts, the luxuries, and the elegancies
which they enjoyed, from the sinews, the
bones, and the marrow, of these unhappy
persons - would refuse to seek a remedy
for the misery which oppressed Ireland, or
hesitate to agree to an inquiry, the object
of which was to discover that remedy. He
had been able to give but an imperfect
representation of the state of this unhappy
people. Did their lordships believe the
representation which he had made? Then
let them grant the inquiry, as the only
means of providing a remedy. Did their
lordships think that he over-stated the
case; that he had coloured the picture too
highly? Let them bring it to the test of
an inquiry. In either case, he was justified
in calling upon their lordships to
agree to his motion. He was quite sure
that their lordships would not mis-spend
their time, if they made an excursion to
Ireland, and judged for themselves, on the
very spot; of the amount of that misery
which was endured by the irish peasants.
They would see the Irish peasant vegetating
in a state of existence worse than that
of any other human being on the face of
the earth.
"Oh we have ta'en
Too little care of this! take physic Pomp!
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayest shake the superflux to them;
And shew the heavens more just."
The noble duke at the head of the
administration had not, he was sure, forgotten
the services of that people, to whom he was
greatly indebted for the composition of those
armies which, as a soldier, he had so often led
to victory; and now that the noble duke was
the prime minister of the country, surely
he would leave no means untried, to
alleviate their distress, or hesitate to have
recourse to the measure which could alone
effect permanent good to Ireland. He
would now move, "That a Select Committee
be appointed to inquire into the
State of the Distressed Population of Ireland."
The Earl of Limerick rose to oppose the
motion, as he was apprehensive that the
whole end and purpose of the noble lord,
was to introduce the Poor-laws into Ireland;
than which no measure could be
more pregnant with mischief. He would
appeal to the noble lords around him,
many of whom were well acquainted with
Ireland, whether they recognised any
similitude to the original, in the highly-coloured
caricature which the noble mover had
presented to their view? At the opening
of his address, the noble lord had stated,
that it was not his wish to import the Poor-laws
into Ireland, in the full rigour in
which they were administered in this
country; but the noble earl's speech, like
many other noxious things, carried a sting
in its tail, and closed, by boldly avowing
that he wanted a general assessment of the
property in Ireland, for the maintenance of
the poor. The noble earl had described
people falling down in the streets and
highways for mere want of food; but the
same thing not infrequently happened in
England, and could form no sufficient
reason for inflicting the system of the Poor-laws
upon Ireland. In pleading the cause
of Ireland, the noble earl seemed not to
have forgotten England, and with considerable
dexterity had angled for the support
of noble lords especially connected
with the latter. Among other matters,
he had spoken of emigration from Ireland
to England. Did the noble earl mean to
say, that the Irish were not permitted
to seek employment in this country? Was
the unhappy wretch to be stopped on his
first landing, and sent back again? Were
the parish officers to tell him, "You carry
want and misery on your front; you must
not come here to pollute our shores - go
back. It is true there was a union of the
two countries, but it was only a paper
union; so return and starve." No less
than seven millions had been raised last
year in England under the Poor-laws, and
the litigations for removals and settlements
had cost 600,00l. Did the noble earl
imagine, that, by any inquiry, he could
render such a system palatable in Ireland?
Let the Poor-laws be once established, and
the Spencean doctrines would flourish in
full beauty and vigour: the misery, now
partial, would be extended over the whole
country, and felt by all classes; Ireland
would wear one face of woe, and these lines
of the poet would be verified: -
"We are all equal; for my lot is thine;
That is your resting place, and this is mine."
Property would soon become common; no
man would work, because he could live
without it; the Irish peasant would eat,
drink, and sleep, and do no labour, but in
the vocation of producing children. The
noble earl, with great gallantry, was willing
to devote his Irish property to destruction;
but did he not recollect that his ancestors,
the people of England, from the reign of
Elizabeth to the year 1783, were employed
in increasing the poverty in Ireland? Had
it not been, during that long interval, one
continued scene of aggression? The great
lord Strafford was the first to establish a
manufacture in Ireland, and he had written
to a minister of state in England, that
he would take care to repress the rising
energies of trade and manufactures; for
although he had given the Irish a slight
manufacture of linen, which would employ
a few, he would adopt measures to prevent
its increase, as well as the introduction of
the woollen manufacture. The successor of
that noble lord pursued the same plan;
wool was grown, but it was not allowed to
be manufactured in Ireland, and its export
was not permitted excepting to England;
while cattle could not be sold here on
account of the effect of competition on the
price. The introduction of the Poor-laws
would amount to a positive confiscation of
property. Instead of burthening Ireland
with new taxes, the noble lord should
employ himself in devising means of making
the people industrious and contented. One
plan had, indeed, often been mentioned
with approbation by the noble earl, as a
remedy for all evils; it was what had been
called communicating to the people of all
religions equal rights; but how would
that put an end to poverty? He was
satisfied, that in no country of the world
more genuine charity existed than in Ireland;
but nothing was more likely to chill
it than the threat of a compulsory levy for
the maintenance of the poor. But the
noble lord was anxious to introduce the
Poor-laws for the sake of the aged and
infirm, and precisely the same benevolent
intention was expressed in the famed
statute of Elizabeth; but if the poor, as
they ought to have been, had been provided
for at that time out of the revenues
of the convents, the contrary would not
have been infested by banditti. The noble
earl had complained that there was no
provision in Ireland for the infirm and
aged; but he held in his hand a statement
regarding the poor-house of Limerick, by
which it appeared that the revenues last
year amounted to 1882l. 6s. 5 d., and
that the number of poor relieved was one
thousand and eight. There was scarcely
a parish in which a dispensary was not
established. The people, therefore, were
not in such a state of helpless destitution.
It was impossible for government to do
every thing: they had already done much:
they had employed the people, in great
numbers, upon roads and bridges - not,
indeed, at the expense of the public,
but by advances which were subsequently
repaid. Being satisfied, therefore, that a
modified poor-rate, under the statute of
Elizabeth, would end in accumulated taxation,
and in inflicting upon Ireland the
evil under which this country was writhing,
he would oppose the motion.
The earl of Longford, in opposing the
motion, hoped it would not be understood
that he meant to deny the existence of
great distress in Ireland. He believed that
much distress did exist in that country,
and he should be most happy to lend his
aid to any plan which seemed calculated
to remove it. His reason for opposing
the motion arose entirely from his conviction,
that the provision which the noble
earl seemed inclined to propose would not
have the effect which he hoped would
arise from it. Considering the impracticability
of applying to useful purposes such
a measure as the noble earl contemplated,
and believing that if general relief were
granted, the mischief occasioned by it
would be infinitely greater than any good
that it was likely to effect, he trusted their
lordships would not sanction it. He knew
not how it was possible for their lordships
to devise any suitable or practicable relief.
The circumstances of the country were
so complicated - the objects to be inquired
into so various, that he thought it would
be impossible to come to any practical
views with reference to it; and he was
perfectly sure, as no favourable result was
likely to attend the proposition, that if it
were acceded to, it would produce disappointment
and agitation. The noble earl
appeared to think, that the misery of
Ireland was mainly to be attributed to the
failure of the Popery question. This was
one of the many nostrums which were put
forth for the tranquilization of Ireland;
but like other boasted specifics, it would
not produce the supposed effect, if recourse
were had to it. Respecting as he did the
motives of the noble earl, he still felt himself
compelled to differ from him in opinion
as to the utility of his motion.
Viscount Lorton said, that with his
knowledge of the noble earl's being one of
the best absentee landlords - but still an
absentee - he could not help considering
much of what the noble earl had advanced
as theoretical, and therefore to be received
with due caution. He concurred in the
correctness of the statement, that much
misery existed in Ireland; but in the noble
earl's explanation of the cause of that
misery, he certainly could not agree. He
therefore should state his opinion on the
subject as clearly as a long practical
experience would enable him. It was not
necessary for him to enter into a view of
the general state of Ireland: such an
examination would open a vast field of
discussion, and he should therefore avoid it.
The whole bearing of the present discussion
might be compressed into one narrow
point - the extreme poverty and distress of
the people of Ireland. Many causes were
assigned for that distress, and numerous
recipes were prescribed for the cure of the
disorder. Their Lordships had heard of
one that evening, which, year after year,
had been brought before the legislature -
he meant that which was most erroneously
called catholic Emancipation. Now, he
could not see how such a measure, if
carried, could give relief to six or even seven
millions of people. The more the subject had
attracted his attention, the more he felt
satisfied, that if those claims were conceded
the miseries of Ireland would be increased,
and the chains of her slavery riveted. He
imagined that there could be but one
opinion on the character of Popery as it
existed in the dark ages; and if it had
prevailed in England to the present day,
this country never would have reached the
station which she at present held among
the nations of the world. Taking this
position for granted, was it the wish of any
party to keep the population of Ireland in
the state of degradation which forwarded
the views of those who were unable to
value the glorious struggles of England
for the establishment of her constitution?
He requested their lordships to take a
cursory view of the present condition of
different parts of Europe. In Switzerland,
where the same civil rights were enjoyed
by all, some of the cantons were Protestant,
and some Catholic: in the former all
was industry, comfort and cleanliness - in
the latter, every thing presented an appearance
the very reverse. How was such an
extraordinary phenomenon to be accounted
for? It could not be said that it was the
effect of penal laws, for no penal laws
existed there, except those which Popery
enacted, and would enact wherever it was
the predominant religion. Let their lordships
look to the beautiful garden of
Italy: they would there see the wretchedness
and misery endured by the cultivators
of as fine a soil as any in the world. In
short, as they approached nearer to the
head-quarters of the Roman pontiff, they
would be the more struck with the deplorable
state of the country; until at length
they beheld the fac simile of Irish distress,
Irish cabins, and Irish disease. It was
the same in every country where the
Catholic religion was allowed to take its full
swing. In his opinion, the man could not
be considered a true patriot, who, by procuring
this emancipation, as it was incorrectly
termed, would run the risk of
reducing his country to that state of slavery
and degradation from which she had freed
herself. - He should now draw the attention
of their lordships t the situation in
which Ireland was placed at present. A
parliament was allowed to sit unmolested
in Ireland, under the auspices of the
Catholic clergy, who sent out order to every
man of their persuasion, rich and poor,
high and low, to act as that self-elected
body desired them. That mandate was
obeyed; for none dared to resist it. Such
a system must be crushed: and the sooner
it was done the better. The Irish Catholics
were, in fact, in a state of bondage:
they paid a blind obedience to their priests,
unknown in other countries. Those priests
sent out their tracts against reading the
Bible, and vented their feelings against all
who did not blindly approve of their
proceedings. In truth, the effect of their
existing system was to drive Protestant
gentlemen and Protestant property out of the
country, and to keep in a state of disquiet
and alarm, all those who did not choose to
submit to the arrogant domination of this
Catholic parliament, and its great supporters,
the Catholic priests. And here he could
not avoid noticing the striking contrast which
existed between Roman Catholic clergy
educated abroad, and those educated at
Maynooth. The former were generally
well-affected to the government. What
the conduct of the latter had been it was
unnecessary for him to describe. He would
say, viewing all these circumstances, that
if it were wished to perpetuate the misery
of Ireland, let the legislature grant Roman
Catholic emancipation; for, by such an
act, they would establish that imperium in
imperio which he had spoken of, and they
would, more than ever, encourage the
Catholics to rise up against their Protestant
fellow-subjects, whom they were taught
to call heretics, and to look upon as
persons with whom no faith was to be kept.
This was a fact known to every gentleman
conversant with the state of that country.
- He might be asked, what remedy he
would recommend? His remedy was
simply to give employment to all who were
in want of it. That course would effectually
do away with the necessity for all
those emigrations from Ireland to this
country, the object of which was that the
persons so coming here might pick up a
few pounds for the support of their families,
who, during their absence, were sent round
the country to beg. This was a horrid
system, and occasioned the most lamentable
demoralization. Now, in what manner
could the employment which he proposed
be afforded to the people? He would say,
by the establishment of a sufficient fund,
which might be raised by a general land
and absentee tax; which should be expended,
under proper regulations, on the
improvement of the country where the
money was collected. Such a plan, if
adopted, would prove of material benefit
to the country. In the course of a short
time it would alter the habits of the people,
and render Ireland, what it was not at
present, a desirable place to reside in. He
entreated ministers to act in a firm and
decided manner towards Ireland, and not
to attempt any thing by half-measures, or
by what had been called conciliation. That
had been tried over and over again, and
had constantly failed. Let something be
done for the poor; and, without ceremony,
let an extinguisher be placed on the Popish
parliament. Then, and not till then,
emancipation, in its true sense, would be
gained by the Roman Catholic population.
Before he sat down, he begged to draw
guild of merchants of Dublin, on the 22nd
of February, which contained a most
accurate representation of the present state
of Ireland. It proved clearly, that the
wealth and the strength of Ireland were
essentially Protestant, and not Catholic,
as the demagogues would fain make the
world believe.
The Duke of Wellington said, that before
he proceeded to the question, he begged
to assure their lordships that he was
thoroughly convinced, that no part of his
majesty's dominions so imperiously required
the particular attention of his majesty's
servants as Ireland did. The noble earl
had stated, that there were in Ireland
eight millions of people, the situation of
six millions of whom demanded inquiry.
He had told their lordships likewise, that
all the wealth of Ireland was not sufficient
to give employment to those people. Now,
certainly, he could not but think that this
was an exaggerated statement. It could
not be the fact, that there were six mill-
[torn] Irish population who required
[torn] but he could see no use for
[torn] into that part of this subject;
[torn] was well known, from the evi-
[torn] the House already had before
[torn] poor of Ireland did suffer very
[torn] [terrible?] distress. But, it was not true
[torn] suffered this distress at all times:
[torn] not true that they suffered the same
[torn] of distress in different years; but it
was unquestionably true, that they did suffer
great distress at various periods, owing
to the casualties of the seasons, and to the
particular species of food on which they
subsisted. The noble earl had stated, that
the people were able to procure that sort of
food at three farthings a stone. Now,
really, if those six millions of people could
get provisions at that price, in favourable
seasons, it did appear to him, that the case
hardly called for inquiry, unless at a period
when their food failed, in consequence of
an unproductive season. No inquiry was
necessary to prove that this was the real
state of the case. They had the fact
already before them, in a variety of statements
made by persons of authority;
and there could, in truth, be no doubt
about the matter. But then the noble earl
asserted, that the distress arose from
want of work, and that it would take more
than all the wealth of Ireland to procure
employment for the people. "Let us,
then," said the noble earl, "relieve the
sick, the lame, the aged, and the impotent."
Now, he believed it was true, as had been
stated, that the gentlemen of Ireland had
already subscribed largely for the relief of
persons of that description. It was likewise
true, that with all that could be done,
when there was a great pressure of distress,
it was utterly impossible for those gentlemen,
however anxious they might feel on
the subject, to relieve the whole of that
distress; and the consequence was, that
those shocking circumstances occurred to
which the noble earl had so feelingly
referred. But he would ask, did the nobel
earl intend to confine relief to the sick, the
lame, the aged and the impotent? Because
if so, that relief would go a short way
indeed to alleviate the extensive misery
arising from want of employment. But
another observation which he begged leave
to make, resulted form the state of the
poor in this country. The Poor-laws here
were applied to, for the purpose of supporting
able-bodied men, in numerous instances.
The poor-rates were made applicable
to that purpose, and much of the
burthen was attributed to that part of the
law, which required that work should be
furnished to able-bodied men. This could
not always be found; but still the system
of relief must be persisted in, because, if
work were not furnished to able-bodied
men, and if no food were given to them,
those able-bodied men would soon become
sick, and declare on the parish. Now, he
would ask, what the consequences must
be, if a burthen of this kind were laid
on property in Ireland - if the necessity of
finding food for the sick, and not for
the able-bodied, were imposed on that
country? Why, the consequence would
be, that nobody would work; and, when
want of sustenance induced sickness, the
people would at once come on the rates.
- The noble earl had said, that one of the
great evils of Ireland was want of capital;
but he must tell the noble earl, that
profusion of capital alone would not prevent
the existence of a numerous body of poor.
With the state of the poor in Ireland,
their lordships were thoroughly acquainted.
The opinion of Mr. Frankland Lewis,
and of other acute individuals, examined
before their lordships, was perfectly well
known. Those gentlemen had stated,
that the poor-laws, as they existed in this
country, or in Scotland, were not applicable
to Ireland. Why, then, should they go
into a committee, to have the same opinion
stated over again, and probably by the
same persons? It would only agitate the
public mind; and, unless the noble earl
laid down some practicable plan, it would
be much better to avoid the inquiry.
The Earl of Mountcashel opposed the
motion. He observed, that the catholic
rent was principally collected from the
poorest of the people, and if relief were
generally extended to them, it would only
enable the Catholic Association to take
more money out of their pockets. He
also opposed it, because it would tend to
depreciate the value of land in Ireland;
which already did not fetch more than half
the price that it fetched in England. The
people of Ireland did not require so much
relief as was imagined: they were more
prone to idleness, and were more easily
satisfied than the people of England: give
them their potatoes and their dirty cabins
and they thought they had enough.
With regard to the sick and aged, the
bounty of private individuals had raised
up numerous dispensaries, hospitals, &c.
for their relief.
The Earl of Darnley said, that perceiving
the feelings of the noble duke, and
that they were concurred in by mant
noble lords connected to Ireland, he
felt that he ought not pertinaciously to
press his motion. He had not a better
opinion of the Catholic religion than other
noble lords opposite; but he did not think
that a constant vituperation of that
religion was the way to conciliate the people
of Ireland. He could not think that [torn]
the source of the evils of that [torn]
when he saw the flourishing sta[--?] [torn]
the Netherlands, where it also [torn]
He wanted to institute an inquiry [torn]
whether they might not give relief [torn]
increasing the state of the security of [torn]
property there. He was opposed to [torn]
system of coercion which some noble [torn]
seemed inclined to recommend [torn]
hoped the noble duke would not [torn]
their recommendations; for such a [torn]
would throw Ireland into a flame [torn]
aggravate the evils she already suffered.
The motion was negatived.
