CHARITABLE ESTABLISHMENTS OF
IRELAND.] Mr. Callaghan moved for a
Return of the different
Charitable
Establishments of Ireland. The hon. Member
felt obliged to say that the
conditions of the poor in the city which he
represented was so appalling, that a delay
of one day in inquiring into the causes of
the evil might be dangerous to the peace
of the community. He would take the
opportunity to ask the hon. Member for
Limerick what was the proposed scope of
his inquiry with respect to the condition
of the poor of Ireland, for which he
intended to move the appointment of a
Select Committee on the 11th March.
There was much anxiety in Ireland on the
subject of the hon. Gentleman's motion ;
and he inquired whether the
hon. Member's object was to procure means
of relief for the infirm, to investigate the
condition of unemployed labourers, or to
propose the introduction into Ireland
of the principle and practice of the present
system of English Poor Laws. He regretted that
so distant a day was fixed for the Motion
upon the subject, particularly as it was
not understood in Ireland whether it were
intended to introduce the Poor Laws into
that country or not.
Mr. Spring Rice, in reply to the
hon. Gentleman, must state that his motive for
deferring his Motion was, because no relief
granted to Ireland could be complete
without a previous inquiry into
the charitable institutions of that country.
His first object was to ascertain the actual
....
not require any laborious examination ;
particularly as papers upon the subject
had already been laid before the
Emigration Committee in 1825. The second
subject was the Charities of Ireland, and
the effect they had in relieving distress.
The third subject was the question of the
Poor Laws. Many Gentleman maintained
the expediency of introducing the English
Poor Laws into Ireland, but no person
could think of doing this without a full
inquiry into the effect likely to be produced
by the measure upon the people of Ireland,
and into the mechanism necessary to carry
the measure into operation. Many
Gentlemen, who did not think that the
introduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland
would be beneficial to that country, were of
opinion that they ought to be introduced
for the sake of benefiting England, by
the preventing of Irish emigration. He
begged them to reflect whether it were not
more probable that the measure would
have a decidedly opposite tendency. It
would be premature then to argue the
question. He had stated that there were
Public Charities in every county of
Ireland, and he could assert that in every
town of Munster there were Houses of
Industry. He had admitted that
the distress of Ireland was less than that of
England, but still the distress was
sufficiently great to need inquiry. He had
received a document from a Gentleman
residing in Kerry, in which the writer had
said, that for the last twenty-eight or thirty
years he did not recollect any one period
so replete with distress, or any one in
which wretchedness had prevailed to such
an extent. It was a question with the
writer whether one half of the rents due
would be paid, and whether the winter
would pass without commotion.
Considerable improvements were going on
through-out Ireland, but though capital was
augmenting, the increase of population was
more rapid than the increase of capital,
and the distress of the people was
increasing.
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald said, he was
ready to confirm the statements of the
hon. Member for Limerick as to the credibility
of the source of the information referred to
on the subject of the present condition of
some parts of the South of Ireland.
Nobody felt more deeply than he did the
vast importance of the question of which
the hon. Member had given notice for the
...
of abstaining from going into the subject
at the present moment. That the
document referred to did not exaggerate the
distress existing in the district to which
the writer alluded, nor in the general
distressed condition of the people of the South
of Ireland, he fully agreed. He believed
that all the districts which depended
principally upon the produce of butter and
cattle were deeply affected by the
depression of prices in the English market. With
respect to the district more paricularly
referred to in the document in question, he
was sure that his hon. friend the Member
for Limerick would be glad to hear that
he had that morning seen a statement in
a newspaper, which contained a
description of considerable mitigation having
taken place in the distress that recently
prevailed in the neighbourhood. The
paper stated that a Killarney
correspondent had informed them that Lord Kenmare
had given directions to his agent, Mr.
Galway (the writer of the communication
referred to) to give immediate employment
to the poor in his neighbourhood ; and if
there were not sufficient to do on the spot,
to set them to work elsewhere : it was
added, that in consequence of this, above
one hundred additional persons were now
employed. Though exceedingly unwilling
to say anything of himself, he could not
omit to notice a personal allusion affecting
him, which was contained in the same
paper. It was added, "Will the Knight
of Kerry even now acknowledge that
distress prevails in Kerry ?" If that were the
only observation upon his conduct, he
should have treated it with neglect and
contempt ; but having been selected as a
particular object for slanderous and false
assertions in consequence of what he had
stated in that House, he thought it right
to justify himself against such accusations.
No man could do his duty in Parliament
with ease and satisfaction to himself, and
advantage to the country and his
constituents, if he were to be exposed to such
slander. On the first night of the Session,
he offered a few words to the House at a
late period of the debate, in the course of
which he stated expressly that great
distress existed in Ireland, and he was so
reported to have said in every paper
published in London. That being the case,
whatever the objections the writer of the
attack in question might have to his
conduct, or whatever motives might be
attributed to him, in statements sent forth to
the public of Ireland, he could have
wished that his language in Parliament had
not been misrepresented. Yet he had been
subjected to this annoyance: he was
represented as denying in toto the
existence of distress in Ireland. The paper in
question stated, in a manner rather
uncourteous and unbecoming, that Goulburn,
Peel, Leveson Gower, and Spring Rice,
represented the distress in Ireland
as only trifling and partial. He might
here observe that he was not aware of any
such language having been held by the
Gentleman thus designated. But the article
proceeded (and this part was printed in
Italics), "The Knight of Kerry denied its
existence in toto." It was rather curious
that in an adjoining column was contained
a specimen of newspaper cross-readings
in Ireland, in which it was stated in the
Parliamentary debate, that the Knight of
Kerry said there existed great distress in
Ireland. [Hear, and laughter.] He
complained of the comment that had been
made upon him, and the misrepresentation
to which he had been subjected; the
falsehood grew as it proceeded-
"- vires acquirit eundo:"
the comments were first made in a Dublin
newspaper ; they were thence transmitted
to one published in his own country, where
they might be expected to influence the
opinions of his constituents. After stating,
as already mentioned, that the Knight of
Kerry denied in toto the existence of
distress in Ireland, the article proceeded to
say,"for all which abominable and
flagitious mis-statements, pray Heaven, Kerry,
kick him out the next election." Nobody
was more anxious than he that every
public act of his, whether consisting in
vote or language, should be correctly
known by his constituents. But while the
House must admit that its proceedings
were reported with a degree of accuracy
almost miraculous, and with a promptitude
which was of the greatest importance to
the public, he thought it was not to be
endured that in anything purporting to
be a report or statement of their
proceedings, the House should tolerate such
misrepresentation and slander as he had been
exposed to. Could anything be more
unfair or dangerous than the constituent
body should be thus misled in reference to
the conduct and language of its
representatives ? On the first night of the Session
he stated generally that great distress
existed in Ireland : at the same time he did
add, that, notwithstanding this distress,
he relied upon the resources of the country
ultimately to work out our prosperity ; but
he was far from denying the existence of
distress. The object of the comments so
unfairly made upon his conduct was, to
bring forward the the unfortunate peasantry at
county meetings, under the idea that their
distress had been denied by their
representatives, and to force from them, by
whatever means, a vehement expression of
their feelings, that could serve no good
purpose, but the contrary. His object was,
to obtain the application of practical
remedies to the public distress, if such
remedies could be discovered. For what
purpose could it be pretended that he had
got up in his place and underrated the
distress of the country ? Was it in order
to recommend himself to the Minister ? He
appealed to the invariable tenour of his
public conduct in answer to the
imputation. Perhaps he might have added to
his popularity by exaggerating the public
distress ; but he would have thought it
equally unsafe and disingenuous to do that
as to adopt the opposite course. What he
stated was, that he considered it the duty
of Parliament to deal with the distress
with a view to remedying it. He appealed
to the right hon. Secretary for the Home
Department to say whether any man
surpassed him in the importunity with which
he called upon Ministers to investigate the
state of Ireland, in order, if possible, to
relieve its distresses. He did not mean to
make a boast of that; but such being his
conduct, it was doubly unfair to impute to
him a different line of proceeding. If such
a course were practised with such respect to
other Members in that House, it would
render it unsafe for them to do their duty
towards the country. He was well aware
that the House would interpose with a
remedy for such practices, if he called
upon it to aid him against these attacks ;
but should he do no such thing; he was
the last man in the country to throw
impediments in the way of free discussion,
but let the discussion be fair as well as
free. If the calumy directed against him
had not proceeded on the principle of
falsifying and misrepresenting the
language he had thought it his duty to use as a
Member of the legislature, he should not
have troubled the House with one word
upon the subject. With respect to the
expressions really used by him, he was in
the recollection of the House, and
appealed to every Member who heard him speak
on the occasion in question. The article
alluded to was made the vehicle of a
compliment to the hon. Member for Clare, on
the ground of the ability which that
hon. Member had displayed in his address to
the House ; and to this compliment he
added the humble tribute of his applause
of the modesty and good sense since
exhibited by the hon. Member. He trusted,
as the article in which he was attacked
contained a panegyric upon the
hon. Gentleman's parliamentary conduct
(in the justice of which he entirely concurred),
that no one would be more ready than the
hon. Member to admit the falsehood and
misrepresentation to which he (Mr.
Fitzgerald) had been subjected in the course
of these comments upon his conduct as a
Member of Parliament.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, he had had no
previous expectation that his right
hon. friend would have appealed to him on the
subject of his public conduct, for he was
not aware that it had been attacked.
Now that he was informed of the fact, he
participated in the indignation expressed
by his right hon. friend; and would say,
that within the last six months, of all the
representatives of Ireland there was not
one who had exhibited a more sincere
desire to mitigate the calamities under
which that country had unfortunately
laboured ; and he might add, that all his
right hon. friend's representations to
Government proceeded on the ground
that the poorer classes were suffering
great distress from want of employment.
His right hon. friend was not content with
urging upon Ministers the necessity of
relisf, but submitted to him projects for
affording it, to the development of which
more hours of labour must have been
applied than he had conceived it possible
for a gentleman to devote such purposes
who acted without the incentives of official
remuneration or official duty, and was
merely influenced by a feeling of humanity
and a desire to promote the public good
by affording practical relief to the distresses
of his countrymen. His right hon. friend
had repeatedly urged upon Government
the necessity of affording relief to the poor
of Ireland, not only for the sake of that
country, but also for the sake of this;
and recommended, as relief through the
medium of charity had proved ineffectual,
that substantial relief should be afforded
by the employment of the poor. He heard...
...what his right hon. friend said the other
night, and bore him out in his present
representation of it ; but even if he had not
heard it, and was told of the
misrepresentations which had gone abroad on the
subject, he could not have credited them
for a single moment, or believed that his
right hon. friend would have been guilty
of the inconsistency of expressing in his
place sentiments so utterly inconsistent
with the statements of distress which he
had been making to Ministers during the
last six months. [hear]
Mr. Jephson suggested to the
hon. Member for Cork the propriety of including
in his returns the amount of money paid to
the treasures, secretaries, and other officers
of the several institutions. If this were
done, it would be found that an immense
portion of the funds intended for the
benefit of the poor was frittered away in
the support of useless and unwieldy
establishments.
Mr. O'Connell had nothing to do with
the comments that appeared in the
newspapers upon the right hon. Gentleman's
conduct. He certainly understood the
right hon. Gentleman to differ from him in
degree in his opinion as to the distressed
condition of Ireland, although the right
hon. Member qualified the difference by
an admission of the existence of the
distress. He was himself one of the right
hon. Gentleman's constituents, and would
undertake to say that no county in Ireland
sent a Member to Parliament who
possesses more entirely the confidence of all
his constituents than did the right
hon. Member for Kerry. The hon. and learned
Member proceeded to state, that the
latest account which he had received from
Ireland fully corroborated his previous
statements as to the prevalence of distress
in that country. He fully concurred with
the hon. Member for Limerick in his
statement of the happy results of the measure
of the last Session. However, contrary to an
opinion expressed in Parliament, he thought
the benefits of it more visible in the
unanimity and good feeling produced by it
among the lower than among the higher
ranks of society.
Mr. Callaghan said, that in the
observations he had made, he referred only to
the pauper population which came into
Cork from the neighbouring county; and
that what he had said had no reference
to the disputed question of general distress.
The Motion was agreed to.
SUPPLY.] The Chancellor of the
Exchequer moved the order of the day for
the House resolving itself into a
Committee of the whole House to consider the
expediency of granting a further Supply
to his Majesty.
Mr. Hume, after stating that he was one
of those who had voted against granting
any further Supply to his Majesty until
Ministers had given some pledge that the
distressed state of the country should be
taken into consideration, and promised
to come forward with some information on
the subject, declared that since the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he
would give that information on Friday, he
(Mr.Hume) did not feel himself obliged
to oppose the present Motion.
The House then resolved itself into a
Committee of Supply.
2,500,000l. were then granted for the
service of his Majesty, to discharge the
like amount of Supplies granted in the years
from 1824 to 1829 inclusive ; 25,438,800l.
were next granted to discharge the amount
of such outstanding Exchequer Bills issued
in the years 1829 and 1830, as remained
unprovided for. 168,800l. were next
granted for the discharge of Exchequer
Bills issued to defray the expense of
publicworks, fisheries, and additional churches.
The House resumed, and the Report
was brought up. Adjourned.
