196. You stated that you have known instances
where the land system was not the object of
those secret societies?-I have known instances of
its being put into operation for other purposes.
197. What other purposes? - I instance the case of
a baker in Newry demanding the price of his bills
for bread in the country, and he was refused. He
was then served with a threatening notice, that if
he sent his cart or attempted to enforce his demand,
it would go back with a different story.
198. Do you think that the facility of escape by
going to America has increased the number of those
crimes in the country? - Yes I do.
199. And that they have planned their means of escape
before the perpetration of them? - Decidedly; I say
that that is arranged so; that is one of the principal
things in Liverpool, to have parties there paid for
the purpose of keeping those people until they can
be with safety sent away.
1143. Mr Fortescue. Are you aware of a circular having
been lately published, by the agent of the Marquis of
Bath's estate, addressed to the tenantry, on the subject
of emigration? -Yes.
1144. What was it? It was offering the means of emigration
to those who were in arrears of rent, or, indeed, to any
tenant, a free passage, certain quantity of clothes,
provisions, and money.
1145. Are you aware that it contained words to the effect;
"As the greater number of you are in arrears six years'
rent, you must not expect an additional sum in hand,
when you arrive at your destination"? - That was the
second circular.
1146. There was a circular of that sort? - Yes.
2081. Is there at present much emigration in the
district in which you have lately been stationed? -
There is a great deal of emigration generally throughout
Ireland.
2082. Have you lately visited any of the ports, or talked
with, or had intercourse with people who are emigrating? -
No, but I have had opportunities officially of knowing that
emigration has been very extensive.
2083. If you see an Irishman, and his wife and children,
and baggage going down to Limerick, or to any port,
what do they say about it in conversation? - That they
think they could "better themselves" by going to
America.
2084 Mr Goold. Did you ever hear them say anything about
the taxation of the country? - Not that I am aware of.
2085. Mr Bright What is the grievance of which they
complain? - I have not heard them complain of any
grievance. They receive favourable reports from their
relatives who have gone to America, which induces
them to emigrate; in many cases their relations send
them money to enable them to do so. A very large
amount for that purpose has been remitted from America
to relations of former emigrants, to take their families
out.
2086. Supposing anybody were to lend you money for
your passage, probably you would not be likely to go? -
I should certainly go, if I thought I could improve
my circumstances.
2087. Can you state to the Committee why these people
abandon their native land? - As I have said before, I
know no other reason, than that it is to "better their
condition", as they say.
2088. Mr Leslie. Do you think the potato failure has
anything to do with it? - I do not know, but it is
probable it had.
2089. Mr Bright. Do you know whether a large number of
Irishmen, who have gone over to the United States, have
become occupiers of land in the State of New York, or in
the valley of the Mississippi? - I think a great many have.
They travel up the country, even as far as the Illinois
territory. I recollect having on occasion to send a
constable to that country to effect the arrest of a man
charged with murder. The constable was surprised to find
a large colony, almost exclusive Irish, settled there,
some of whom attempted to murder him, under the following
circumstances: About the year 1847 a man named White shot his
own cousin in his own field in the county of Tipperary;
White escaped to America. Some time after we received
information that he had purchased a farm in the Illinois
territory. Lord Clarendon authorised the inspector-general
to send a constable to America, to endeavour to effect
White's arrest. Constable Keaons (who was acquainted with
White) was sent on this duty. He proceeded to a small
town called Galena, where, upon inquiry, he ascertained
that White's farm was near a place called Vinegar Hill.
Having procured the aid of an American constable, he set
out for the farm, and when within a short distance of it
he perceived White with his two men loading a waggon with
some felled timber. Keaons (the constable) advanced alone
and arrested White. His labourers attempted to rescue him,
but the constables being armed with pistols, threatened to
shoot White should they persist. He then placed White on his
own waggon (in the meantime the American constable had
disappeared), and brought him prisoner to Galena,(a distance
of 10 miles), to the office of the state marshall (a
magistrate). The moment the Irish heard of it, from 200
to 300 of them assembled in front of the office, and demanded
the surrender of the prisoner, at the time declaring
they would murder the constable. The marshall was either
unable or unwilling to protect the man, and the mob
commenced breaking into the house. Fortunately, however,
for Keaons, a young man, an American, managed to get him
out through a back window, and into the hotel, where he
remained concealed for some hours; the mob all this time
continued searching, and calling out for his life.
Eventually, the young man referred to succeeded in
taking him off in his gig at nightfall to a distant
ferry, which the constable crossed, and had to travel
all night before he reached a place of safety. Last
year, having received information that White was in New
York, and had been boasting of this exploit, Lord
Clarendon again ordered a constable to be sent after
him. Constable Keaons was again selected, but before
he reached New York, White had left.
2090. White did not come with him? - No; White was
rescued by the Irish.
2091. Do you know whether any persons who have given
information in this country, have emigrated to America
to get out of the way, and to avoid retaliation here,
have found their position unpleasant among the Irish
when they got to America? - I have heard reports of that
kind, but I do not know it to be a fact. I do not think
they would be likely to return again.
2092. Was the case of which you have spoken with
regard to White?- It was an agrarian outrage.
2093. Have you ever had the opportunity of reading any
letters from the Irish settled in America, to their
friends in Ireland? - I have seen several.
2094. Do you know that one inducement to them to cross
the Atlantic, is the ease with which they become the
possessors of land in America? - In many cases; but I
have also heard that many who have gone out to America
have suffered very great deprivations and absolute
destitution.
2095. Is it not natural that men who go out very poor
in an emigrant ship, and who have a fever, and who
land without any occupation in bad health, should suffer
much, and that many of them should die? - I am speaking
of sufferings after they have landed, and have been in the
country for some time.
2096. Is it not an impression among the Irish, with
whom you have come into contact, when they were about
to emigrate, that in America, from some cause or other,
instead of being occupiers at the will of the landlord,
in a country where there is a fierce competition for land
subject to a high rent, their position in America
would be much better, where land is much more easily
obtained, and that they would become independent
proprietors themselves? - Yes; that is the general
impression among the people, and of course it is what
induces so many to emigrate.
2097. Have you ever been in the United States? - No.
2098. You have perhaps occasionally read books and
newspapers about the United States? - Yes.
2099. Are you aware of any reason why an Irishman in
the United States should become a peaceable, industrious,
prosperous citizen, whilst somehow or other you cannot
get an Irishman into that position in his own country? -
I am not quite certain that that is generally the case.
I have a friend who is living, not in the United States,
but in Canada, with whom I sometimes correspond, and he
gives me a very different account of the Irish who go
out there.
2100. Does he state that they do not become peaceable
and prosperous? Yes.
2101. He speaks probably of Irishmen in the towns? -
No; he speaks of Irishmen in the country; he speaks
of the country near Toronto.
2101. Does he say that Irishmen in Canada do not settle
on land, and become prosperous, and that the next
generation will not flourish? - I do not mean to say that.
2103. You have no hope from the time when your
grandfather lived, that the next generation in Ireland
will be any better than the last? - I have every hope.
2104. Is it not a hope still not fulfilled? - I hope it
is in progress of being fulfilled.
2105. Can you state what is the secret that Irishmen in
great numbers in America, become all you would wish to
see them in Ireland, but which you rarely see them in
Ireland? - I cannot say that you very rarely see them
what you would wish them to become. I know very many
industrious farmers of all classes of the community;
and there are some counties, where you will find extremely
industrious and well-conditioned people, both in the
south and in the north.
2106. But still in such a condition that respectable
farmers sympathise with, and sometimes employ, assassins
to get rid of their landlords? - Farmers, who have probably
been evicted. I do not mean to say, that a respectable man
who is in possession of a farm, wants to get rid of his
landlord except he is about to be evicted, nor do I
intend to convey that respectable farmer in possession
of a farm is a party to any combination of the kind;
quite the contrary. I have only been speaking of ill--
conditioned parties both in Tipperary and in Limerick,
and in other disturbed parts of Ireland. There are
highly respectable and well-ordered, and well-conditioned
people among the farmers of Ireland.
2145. With reference to the question of emigration,
assuming that, to a certain extent, the Irish do very much
improve in America, would you ascribe that to the
circumstances that they escape from certain influences
which impede their exertions in Ireland and poison their
minds; the Tenant League, and things of that kind? - I
have heard it so alleged; I have heard that several
emigrants have said as much.
2146. (Mr. Bright) What have they said? - That they
wished to escape from certain influences.
2147. What do you mean by "certain influences"? - By
"certain influences," I understood that meant the influence
of their own clergy, and they wished to escape from it.
2148. (Mr. Scully). Do you mean that they wished to escape
from the payments to the clergy? - From their influence.
2149. Influence injurious to their interest, or injurious
to their persons, or in what way? - They feel themselves
overtaxed, I imagine.
2150. By the clergy? - I fancy so.
2151. What clergy? - Roman -catholic, I mean.
2152. Is it to escape the tax of the Roman-catholic
clergy that they emigrate? - Both tax and influence, as I
have heard.
2153. The tax and influence of the Roman-catholic clergy?
- Yes.
2154. Do you know it of your own knowledge from them? -
I do not.
2155. (Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland). Is it not the fact,
that the price of labour is very much greater in America
than in Ireland? - Considerably more.
2475. In the case where there is a vast number of small
holdings, where the occupier pays no rent, and is not liable
to rates, has the landlord there not only to pay the rates
him, but to forgive him the rent? - Certainly; and the
proprietor of one of those estates pays the passage of a
tenant to America, gives him a sum of money on his arrival
there, and remits all the rent, in order to have possession
quietly.
2476. (Mr. Scully) Has he done that to any great extent? - I
believe to a considerable extent. There were a great
number of ejectments brought on the estate to which I refer.
The ejectments were brought for nonpayment of rent. The
Committee are aware that it is only by a recent Act of
Parliament that an ejectment for nonpayment of rent can
be brought, except on a lease or an instrument. An
ejectment can now be brought for nonpayment of rent, where
the holding is from year to year, where the year's rent
is due. I took some pains, with the object of communicating
to he authorities, to ascertain the class of persons, and
the amount of their rent, against whom ejectments were
brought. I ascertained that in the majority of cases
there were four or five years' rent due, and sometimes more.
I believe there were seven years' rent due in several
instances. When I came to inquire how it was, it was
stated that the holdings were very small, as in truth they
were very small, and that the rent was not worth looking
after, as the occupiers were paupers. As the law stood
before, they could not evict for nonpayment of rent
directly, but there must be a notice to quit, and then
frequently there were difficulties; and the landlord
was turned around very often, by his inability to prove
the commencement of the tenancy or the service of the notice
to quit.
2477. If the practice were carried out of giving tenants
money, and paying their passage to america, where would be the
necessity for so many ejectments? - I do not know, and
that surprised me; there was a printed paper produced on
a trial, which the Committee could have, stating the
readiness of the owners of the estate to remit all the rent
if possession was given.
2478. Were those cases different or separate from the cases
where the ejectments were brought? - The ejectments were
brought in all cases. It was produced in evidence, in
consequence of an observation of mine from the bench; I
asked,"Why do you proceed in this way, when the tenement
is so very small?" They complained of my observation,
it was an observation made in favour of the people, and
they said, "We have no other remedy, because we cannot
induce the people to avail themselves of an offer which
would dispense with all these proceedings."
2479. Was that offer made by other proprietors? - Of
my own knowledge, I only know of it being made in one
other case. It came before me judicially.
2480. (Mr. O'Flaherty). Did the offer include the payment
of the passage of the family, as well as the individual? -
I think either a certain sum was given or the passage was
paid for the family, and there was a small sum to be paid
over on their arrival in America.
2481. (Mr. Scully). Have you any idea of what would be the
sum per head when the family arrived on the shores of
America? - I should say it would be very small, if there
was a numerous family.
2843. Has there been much emigration from the parish of
Castleblaney? -There has been a good deal of emigration
amongst the youthful portion of the population.
2844. Is it going on still? - Yes, as much as ever.
2845. Are you ever made the medium of communication between
that portion of the people who have emigrated to America
and the portion who remain? - Frequently.
2846. You receive letters? -Frequently; and a great portion
of the money which comes to the parish, to members of my
congregation, comes through my hands.
2847. Has that emigration been confined to the
Roman-catholics, or has it also extended to the
Presbyterians and the Episcopalians? - I think it
has extended nearly as much to the others as to
the others as to the Roman-catholics.
2848. Do you think that the feeling in favour of
remaining at home and objecting to emigrate is diminishing?-
Very much.
2849. As the numbers increase in America the attraction
to leave home more nearly corresponds with the attraction
to remain at home? - I think so.
2850. You have read many letters from America? - Yes,
giving very flattering and encouraging accounts; and
with requests that those to whom they write will go
out as soon as possible.
2851. They say that so and so exists in Ireland, and
that something exists in America; what is the inducement
they offer? -Better clothing, better feeding, and
better means of making a livelihood for their families.
2852. Do they state frequently that they have become
possessors of farms, or are free by that means from
high rents and the danger of eviction? - Some who have
got farms stated that; but the class of persons generally
whose letters I have seen were servants, labourers, and
persons of that description.
2853. Do they become, to a great extent, servants in
hotels? - Yes; and in country farmhouses also.
2855. In your own case do you feel it your duty to
encourage them occasionally to go, seeing little chance
of making any progress here? - I generally encourage them
to go from the wretched state I see them in, from want
of clothing, and want of proper food.
2856. Can you state at all, with regard to your own
parish, anything as to the amount which has to be sent
home, to enable people to go to America? - I can hardly
give an outline of it; but I would say that generally,
I get about 10 l. a month, perhaps.
2857. In what sums does it come? - œ4, 5l. and 6l.
for passage-money, and money to prepare people to go
out.
2858. Is that money which they have saved, or money
which they have borrowed in America? - All saved. No
one ever said, in a letter that I have seen, that it was
borrowed money.
3478. (Rev. M. Lennon - parish of Upper Creggan, Co.
Armagh). Is there much emigration now going on, or has
there been for a considerable time past, in your district? -
Yes.
3479. Is that emigration confined to Roman-catholics? - It
is not.
3480. Would you say, that in proportion to the number of
the three classes - Roman-catholics, Episcopalians, and
Presbyterians - it would be difficult to say that emigration
was more constant from one than from another? - I think,
in relation to the proportion to the different creeds, the
emigration is equally great; I think there is no distinction
in that way; as many Protestants went off as Roman-catholics,
and as many Presbyterians as either, according to the numbers.
3481. (Lord Naas) Do you then think that the relative
proportion of 20 Roman-catholics to one Protestant still
exists in your parish? - I think it does.
3482. And 50 Catholics to one Episcopalian? - No; I
think deaths have taken away many more Catholics than any
other persuasion, inasmuch as they were a great deal
poorer; but I would say, that emigration is equally great
on the part of every class, in proportion to their numbers.
3483. State what you believe to be the relative
proportion between the number of Protestants and Catholics
in your parish now? - I would not undertake to say that
without making more minute enquiry; but I think the cases
of death have been most numerous among the Catholics.
3484. (Mr. Bright) Are you in the habit of receiving
letters from persons who have gone out to America,
enclosing communications for persons in your parish,
and frequently money? - Very frequently indeed, and I
am greatly astonished at the number of letters I got
containing remittances.
3485. A packet arrived three or four days ago,
since you left home. Do you suppose there will be
letters waiting for you which have come by that packet?
- I have no doubt of it. I receive a great number of
letters.
3486. Every month? - Every month, I may say; containing
5l., 10l., and sometimes larger sums of money.
3487. In point of fact, does this kind of benevolent
commission business, which you enter into, take up
a considerable portion of your time? - No doubt of
it; and it gives me a vast deal of annoyance.
3488. Do you think that a large portion of the funds
which are thus sent over, are employed by the persons
to whom they are sent in providing for their own
emigration? - Yes; I think the greater proportion is for
that purpose. A member of a family going out, generally
sends for two or more of the family in the course of a
year, or two years.
3489. When they arrive, are their joint efforts used to bring
over the rest of the family? - Yes; and so much so, that
whole families have been sent over in that way.
3490. You must have had the opportunity of knowing the
contents of a great number of these letters? - Yes.
Generally I read one-third of them for the poor people
who cannot read, and see how the money is to be allocated.
3491. What do they tell them when they write? - The letters
are generally invitations to go out to the country, where
by labour and exertion they can make themselves comfortable
and independent, which they can never expect to do at home.
3492. (Lord Naas). Do they often say they work a great
deal harder in America than in Ireland? - Yes; they say
they have to work very hard, but they are well remunerated.
3493. (Mr. Bright). They do not say that they work a great
deal harder, and get no money for it? - No; they do not say
they get no money for it; but some of the letters say
they have to work harder than they have to do at home, and that
they are not to expect money will be got for nothing; that
they must work hard; and if they work hard, they are well
paid.
3494. And that what they get is secured to them? - Yes.
3495. Do they dwell on the difference with regard
to land, stating that in America a man may get 50
or 100 acres of land for little more than a year's
rent of the same quantity in Ireland; and that when
he has got it, he is not subject to an exorbitant rent,
and to the insecurity which he feels in Ireland? - That is
most frequently alluded to; and they say that a little
money will purchase a farm, and that when they get a farm
they are sure not to see the face of a bailiff or an
agent, or a process of ejectment, or a decree, or any
other such thing.
3496. (Lord Naas). Do they say what they generally give
for the land? - They do. They say that land which has to
be cleared out may be got for a mere trifle; but that there
is great labour in clearing it; and they say that they will
be able, by a few years' industry, to get as much as willö
purchase a small farm which has already been cleared.
3497. (Mr. Bright). Is it your opinion that a very large
proportion of the Irish who emigrate to America, succeed
there, and very much improve their condition? - There is
not a doubt of it.
3498. If I were to go to your parish and put up a
proclamation that a sun of 5l, or 10l,, or whatever might
be necessary, should be provided for every family who
chose to emigrate to the United States, what proportion
of the inhabitants would go? - That, of course, must be
a matter of conjecture; but my impression is that a
vast number would go. I think that half the parish
would go if you made such a proposal as that.
3499. Would so many go that you would be obliged
to go with them? - I think so.
4525. (Mr. Bright). With regard to the feeling of the
people towards the soil, and particularily with reference
to the emigration which is now in progress, do you think
there is, on the part of the tenantry, a strong clinging
to the farms on which they have been reared, and which they
have cultivated? - Very strong.
4526. It is considered amongst them the last of
human disasters almost, when they are driven from
the possession of their small farms? - I think that feeling is
gradually passing away. It was the feeling at the time.
4527. On what account is it passing away? - There has been,
I may say, almost an organized system of emigration from
our neighbourhood for many years. A great number of
persons have been systematically in the habit of leaving
the neighbourhood in which they have lived for 20 years past.
A son or daughter goes first, acquires some money,
and sends it home; and generally, I may say, the check
has passed through my hands; the money which is sent
takes out another member of the family, and at length the
whole family go. It is on that ground that I feel the
question has almost ceased to be an Irish question, and
become an Imperial question.
4528. If these individuals, members of families, cross the
Atlantic, and settle themselves in the United States, find
employment there, are frugal enough to save money, have
so much regard for their relatives who are left behind
as to remit money to Ireland to bring them one by one,
or altogether, to the States, and in the States
become a prosperous race, that indicates the
possession of moral qualities of no mean order.
How comes it that the possession of these moral qualities
in their own country to give them a better position than
they now enjoy, and to make them prosperous and
contented there? - Their position, as occupiers of the soil,
does not give them the opportunity of acquiring property,
so far as I know. The consequence is, that they
are not able to become prosperous, and that want of
success, perhaps, is the great cause of their remaining in the
state in which we find them; but when they go to the United
States of America, they carry out with them the frugal
habits, and, in fact, the habits of very low living,
contentment with little, which they had in Ireland, and
for the first three or four years that they are in the
States,their wages are so much more than they obtained
in Ireland, that they are very easily able to save money.
I have remarked that, almost universally, they
save money during the first three or four years; but after they
have been there for a number of years, they fall into the
more expensive habits of the people of the states,
and rarely remit much money home.
4529-30. If, within the first three or four years, they
are able to remit what is sufficient to bring out their
family, it is to be presumed that they do not still
prosper and still accumulate in America, because
they do not bring out more distant relatives and members of the
family? - No, I do not mean to convey that idea at all;
but the fact is, that when these parties go over
to the States (and I have had the opportunity of
reading, perhaps, thousands of their letters,
because they bring them to me to get cash for their checks),
the invariable tenor of their letters is this:
"If you come out to this country, you can get 100 acres
of land for ever, free of rent, for one year's rent of the
five or six or seven acres you have now at home; therefore
come." If they go out and leave their farms and get nothing
for them, or if they are evicted, and the last shilling
they have is taken from them by the landlord, which he has
a right by law to do, the consequence is, that they go
out with a very bitter spirit and a very bitter feeling
toward England and English law; and that is the reason
I have just stated that the question has ceased to be an
Irish question and has become an Imperial question. I
earnestly believe that that bitter spirit which we
see so strongly exhibited in the United States, or the
States of America now, is Irish in its origin.
4531. Then you agree with the statement of Mr. Grattan, that
what you trample on in Ireland will sting you in America?
- I do; I think it is important to elevate the position
of the Irish peasantry.
