HOUSE OF LORDS,
TUESDAY, JULY 24, 1860.
MINUTES.] Public Bills. - 1a Heritable Securities,
&c. (Scotland); Game Certificates, &c.:
Manchester Cathedral Church; Landed Property
Improvement (Ireland).
2a Queen's Prison; Offences within Her
Majesty's Possessions Abroad; Coast of Africa,
&c., Act Amendment; Herring Fisheries (Scotland);
Felony and Misdemeanour; Crown
Debts and Judgements.
3a Labourers Cottages (Scotland); Friendly
Societies Act Amendment; Burial Grounds (Ireland)
Act (1856) Amendment; Isle of Man
Harbours; Dominica Hurricane Loan.
CENSUS (IRELAND) BILL - COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to Order).
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said,
he would express his satisfaction that the
clause relating to religious profession had
been struck out of the English Census
Bill. He wished to ask whether such a
clause had been retained in the Irish Bill,
in accordance with the wishes of the noble
Lords connected with that country? He
also observed that there was a provision
not in the Irish Bill, which it would be
desirable to introduce into it, another
which it was in his opinion expedient
should be omitted from it. The Census
would give the numerical return of the
population it found in that kingdom, but
it would not give any return of the persons
who had emigrated in the interval since
the last Census. In former times emigration
from Ireland was strongly advocated,
and a great diminution of the population
necessarily ensued. Latterly a very large
increase had apparently taken place; but
the extent of this increase had hitherto
been only estimated by setting the number
of deaths in one side and the number of
births at the other, no account being taken
either of emigration or immigration.
Emigration they knew had largely gone forward,
and he feared that when the details
were ascertained it would be found that
the country had lost a great portion of its
military strength. Those who emigrated
were principally the strong and hale, who
would to a great extent have become
soldiers if they had remained in the country;
while those who stayed behind were
largely made up of old and very
young. If it should be found that in
proportion to the total number the most
valuable portion of the inhabitants had left
the country, it would be time, he thought,
for the Government and Parliament to
determine whether it was any longer advisable
to take measures for the encouragement
of emigration. He would suggest
that the Government should introduce into
the Irish Bill a clause similar to that
contained in the Bill for England, defining the
provisions of the Act into operation. He
likewise begged to move the omission from
Clause 3 of the words, "and to take account
of such further particulars as by
such instructions they may be directed to
inquire into," which he thought placed an
undefined power in the hands of the Lord
Lieutenant.
Lord MONTEAGLE fully admitted
that there was no longer any necessity for
the encouragement of emigration from Ireland
on the part of Her Majesty's Government,
as the emigration had been attended
with nearly all the benefits that were
expected to follow from it. He would certainly
impose no restraint upon that emigration;
all he thought the Government were now
bound to do in the matter was to see that
the emigrant vessels were perfectly sea-worthy,
well-found, and that the emigrants
were adequately provided for, and exposed
during there voyage to no improper treatment.
He thought the noble Earl was mistaken
with respect to the class of persons of
whom the Irish emigrants now consisted.
It was true that at the commencement of
the movement those emigrants consisted
principally of the young and active; but
many of them after their success abroad
had shown the most affectionate solicitude
for the welfare of the relatives they had
left behind them, and had, in many cases,
taken care to supply the necessary funds for
bringing over to join them both their young
children and their old parents; so that the
emigration now in reality included people
of every age and of every variety of
physical power. The latest returns would show
that there was no longer any reason to
apprehend a loss of military strength. With
regard to the clause in the Bill which
sanctioned an inquiry into religious professions,
he strongly approved of that power
being given, and he believed that such
inquiries when made in 1835 had met with
no opposition of any kind in Ireland. He
very much regretted that it had been found
necessary to omit the similar provision
from the English Bill. He thought it was
a concession to clamour and false alarm.
It was impossible to suppose that to
require a statement of the religious faith
of persons returned by themselves could be
regarded as an interference with religious
freedom; there must consequently be some
other motive for the objection. Could it
be that persons objecting to afford information
on such a point were actuated by
an apprehension of some loss of their own
importance if the truth were accurately
made known. A party unwilling to have
the exact truth stated thereby manifested a
belief that the notions entertained as to its
numbers and influence were at present
exaggerated. In Ireland no objection was
made to such inquires. Under Lord
Melbourne's Administration a special census
was taken which was pointed soley at the
relative numbers of the various Christian
denominations, and yet the returns were
obtained without the slightest difficulty.
The ministers of all sects concurred in
making the Returns most complete, and
there never yet was a more expeditious,
more accurate, or cheaper statistical return
made. No objection had been raised to
this provision in its passage through the
other House, and he hoped their Lordships
would adhere to the Bill as it now
stood. The Irish Census was, however,
incomplete in one respect, inasmuch as it
was a mere enumeration of numbers, unchecked
by those calculations derived from
the returns of births, marriages, and deaths
which were indispensable in England.
He was glad to hear that a Bill had been
introduced in the other House for
establishing a system of registering births,
deaths, and marriages in Ireland, which
had only been withdrawn on account of the
lateness of the session. He trusted it
would ultimately become the law of the
land.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said,
he did not propose to press any Motion;
he had only pointed out the difference
between the two Bills. No doubt this
provision would give a great deal trouble to
the enumerators, for he remembered hearing
that in a small town in the North of Ireland,
near which he had resided many
years ago, there were no less than sixteen
different sects.
Earl GRANVILLE said, he certainly
regretted that it had been necessary to
remove from the English Bill the provision
which was originally inserted for obtaining
Returns of the religious professions
of the people. But when the Government
found that, rightly or wrongly, that
provision was offensive to a great portion of
the inhabitants of the country, it would
have been very improper upon their part
to insist on its retention. He hoped the
noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Ellenborough)
would not press his Amendment for
the omission of certain words in the Irish
Bill, which had only been introduced for
the purpose of ensuring greater completeness
in the Returns.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said,
the point that he oblected to was the
general power given to inquire into any subject
besides those actually specified in the
Bill which the curiosity of the Lord
Lieutenant, or of somebody else who was
about somebody who was about the Lord
Lieutenant, might prompt him to have
inquired into.
Lord MONTEAGLE was disposed to
object to a general power, but was afraid
it might deprive the collectors of the
opportunity of making their Census
comparable in all respects and in all points
of information with the last, and thus injure
the relative value of the results. He
would suggest that the noble Earl should
postpone his Amendment until he had had
an opportunity of ascertaining what were
the exact points inquired into in the last
Census.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said,
he had no objection to the Government
preparing a schedule, in which should be
inserted all the subjects that were inquired
into in 1851; but he did not object on principle
to this clause, which empowered the
Lord Lieutenant to inquire into any subject
on which his curiosity might lead him
to seek information.
Earl GRANVILLE said, the objections
of the noble Earl did not seem to be
shared by the Irish Peers. Unless there
was some particular objection he thought
it was desirable to keep the form of
inquiry as near as possible to that which
was instituted in 1851.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH said,
his objection was that these irrelevant
subjects of inquiry would extend the time
for taking the Census, and would increase the
expense. He objected to it, therefore,
on economical as well as Parliamentary
grounds.
Earl GRANVILLE said, the last
observation did not support the argument of
the noble Earl, because in Ireland the
constabulary performed almost all the duty,
and the expense was small.
Amendments withdrawn.
Bill reported without Amendment; and
to be read 3a on Thursday next.
