AGRICULTURAL POPULATION
(IRELAND).- RESOLUTION.
MR. HENNESSY said, he rose to call attention to the
emigration of the Agricultural Population from Ireland, and
if any excuse was required for its introduction it would be
found in the conflicting statements as to the condition of
Ireland which had from time to time been made by different
members of Her Majesty's Government. In the year 1860 the
right hon.[honourable?] Gentleman the Colonial Secretary,
then Chief Secretary for Ireland, said that there was in the
world no more striking instance of the growth of national
prosperity than was to be found in Ireland, but in a very
short time he was contradicted by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, who said that public attention had not been
sufficiently awakened to the calamities which afflicted that
country since the year 1859. The statements of the Members
of the Government, however, were in their turn denied by the
Irish Members, who insisted upon the existence of a more
widely spread distress than was admitted from official
sources; and in the face of that diversity of statement, it
was not wonderful that the Irish people should seek for
authentic information on a subject which so nearly concerned
them. In March last, he (Mr. Hennessy) called attention to
the depopulation of Ireland, and showed that there was a
decline of 3,000 in the population of that country every
week, and also that the emigration from Ireland at that
moment was greater than at any other period during the last
ten years. The number of persons who left Ireland in 1861
was 64,292; in 1862, 70,117; in 1863, 117,820; and the
Emigration Commissioners stated in their Report, published a
few days ago, that if the emigration continued throughout the
year 1864, at the rate which it had gone on during the first
three months, the number that year would be 156,000; and that
depopulation was taking place in a country in which the
number of marriages was declining, the proportion of births
to deaths was falling of, and the population was declining
more rapidly than that of any country in Europe. The emigration
was distributed generally over the country. In 1863 the
number of persons who emigrated from Leinster was 15,000,
Munster, 55,000, Ulster, 22,500, and Connaught, 18,000. From
the year 1851 to December, 1863, the total loss by emigration
had amounted to 1,431,000 persons, of whom the so-called
flourishing province of Ulster had contributed no less than
400,000. The emigration had been regarded by some Members of
the Government as possessing a satisfactory character. When
the attention of the Lord Lieutenant, for example, was called
#PAGE 2
to the decline of the population, he said that although the
grain crops would decline, the green crops and live stock
would increase, and both he and the Chief Secretary said that
one effect of the emigration would be to diminish poor rates,
and increase the rate of wages in Ireland. The fact was,
however, that while emigration had been increasing, both the
live stock and the green crops had diminished. Last year
there were in Ireland 23,715 horses less than there were in
1862; the decline in the number of cattle amounted to
116,615; sheep, 152,201 ; pigs, 89,522. The total loss of
live stock in the year 1863 amounted in value to £1,227,041,
the loss in the previous year having been £1,500,000. The
cereal crops diminished in 1862 by 72,000 acres, and in 1863
by 144,000, and in both years the green crops also decreased.
In 1863 their decrease amounted to 19,358 acres, and the
total loss of cereal and green crops in 1863 was 164,077
acres. Mr. Donnelly, in his last report, stated that the
total of bogs, waste and unoccupied lands of Ireland had
increased to the extent of 74,856 acres. There was no
increase worth notice last year, except an increase in the
cultivation of flax and meadow-land; but making allowances
for that increase, there were 100,000 acres out of
cultivation. The prediction that emigration would diminish
the poor law expenditure was by no means confirmed by the
statement made by the Poor Law Commissioners in their last
Report, dated March, 1864. They said that the tide of
emigration had had little effect upon the expenditure of the
poor rates beyond the amount which the guardians had expended
in assisting the emigration of poor persons who might
otherwise have become chargeable to the rates. The parties
who emigrated at their own expense were not such as would
have been likely to become chargeable, but it was possible
Bthat some increase of expense might arise from their leaving
behind them dependants or relatives who might be either
temporarily or permanently thrown upon the rates. He found
that in 1863 the Poor Law expenditure increased by £37,000,
and the number of paupers in that year exceeded the total in
the previous year by 26,000. For the first eight weeks of
1864, the only period as to which information was in the
possession of the House, the rate of pauperism had increased
from 68,000 on the 2nd of January, to 76,000 on the 20th of
February - that was to say, at the rate of 1,000 a week. The
third prediction of Her Majesty's Government had therefore
failed, like the other two. With regard to the rate of
wages, recent information had been gained before the Select
Committee upon Irish Taxation appointed on the Motion of the
hon.[honourable?] and gallant Member for the Queen's County,
#PAGE 3
to the proceedings of which some prominence was given in the
public papers. The hon. [honourable?] Member for the County
of Cork (Mr. Maguire) was questioned before that Committee
as to the condition of the labouring classes, and said he
could not conceive how they could make two ends meet with
the wages they received. In his part of the country he could
procure as many men as he wished for 1s. a day, and they were
most thankful to get it. That statement ought to be put in
contrast with that made by the right hon.[honourable?]
Gentleman the Secretary of the Colonies when bringing in his
Tenant Right Bill, to the effect that wages in Ireland were
ordinarily 1s.3d. a day. If that assertion were accurate, a
positive decline, instead of an increase, had taken place in
the rate of wages. Mr. Lambert, the treasurer to the county
of Mayo, before the same Committee, said that the country was
in a more depressed condition than in former years, and that
the condition of the labourers was not as good as before the
famine. The Rev. Mr. O'Regan, P.P.[Parish Priest?]
spoke from his own knowledge of three counties - Kerry,
Limerick, and Cork - and said -
" In my part of the country for certain portions of the
year men are very gratified if they can get occupation at 9d
per day."
An hon.[honourable?] Friend of his who sat on the
benches opposite, who owned large property in the King's
BCounty, and was chairman of one of the principal railways in
Ireland, declared to him in conversation that the Government
never made a greater mistake than in prophesying a rise in
wages, as both his private and public experience led him to
believe that the rate of wages was declining. Of the four
benefits then promised by the government none were found to
exist. The population was not only diminishing, but at a
rate more rapid than heretofore ; the quantity of live stock
and of crops, green as well as cereal, was growing less and
less, wages were falling, whereas poor rates and pauperism
were actually on the increase. With regard to the condition
of those unfortunate subjects of the Queen who were driven to
leave Ireland he wished to say a few words, and to correct
some misconceptions that were abroad. People generally were
under the impression that of the emigrants from Ireland all
went to the United States, and went with the intention of
enlisting in the Federal army. Of the 117,000 who emigrated
from Ireland in 1863, 94,000 went to the United States, but
as many as 18,000 went to Australia, 4,000 to Canada and the
remainder to other places. Of the total number of 56,000
persons described as general labourers, 40,000 went to the
United States and 14,000 to Australia. Of 9,000 farmers,
#PAGE 4
6,500 went to the United States and 1,500 to Australia ; of
female domestic servants 20,000 emigrated, 14,000 going to
the United States and 5,200 to Australia. The question
whether emigrants entered the ranks of the Federal army, and
in what proportions, was one of much interest, and some light
was thrown upon it by a comparative return which the
Emigration Commissioners had published, giving the numbers
who emigrated in the last two years preceeding the war. The
number of Irish single men who emigrated to the United States
amounted in 1859 to 37 per cent, and in 1860 to 38 per cent,
of the total emigration. During the progress of the war the
proportions had been 33 per cent in 1862 and 38 per cent in
1863. The actual numbers of Irish single men who emigrated
in those years respectively were - in 1859, 22,000; in 1860,
30,000; in 1862, 19,000; and in 1863, 53,000. The proportion
of single men who emigrated since the war began was,
therefore, less, if anything, than before it commenced. The
Commissioners observed that-
"Of those who went out many, no doubt, enlisted ; but
their number could have but little effect in keeping up the
strength of the Federal armies. It must be borne in mind
that by the Passenger's Act all boys above twelve years of
age are classed as 'single men,' and a deduction, therefore,
of at least 12 per cent must be made from the single men for
boys between twelve and eighteen years of age. A large
proportion of the remainder emigrated as sons or brothers in
families, and were, therefore, not likely to enlist. After
these deductions are made there would probably not remain in
1863 more than from 20,000 to 25,000 single men out of whom
the Federal army would have a chance of obtaining recruits,
and it is not to be assumed that even a majority of these
took service."
He mentioned these facts for the purpose of showing that
the amount of Irish additions to the Federal ranks was not so
great as some persons had been led to imagine. And what was
the condition of the Irish emigrant arriving in America? He
had recently seen a very touching letter from the Roman
Catholic Bishop in Toronto written to one of the Roman
Catholic Bishops in the North of Ireland, and dated April,
1864, in which he dwelt upon the lamentable condition of the
Irish emigrants, and said -
"How heartrending the sight of these emigrants arriving
on our wharves, surrounded by sharpers - the harpies of
cities - destined to be swept like a torrent of rain into the
sewers of society! Hence the hospitals, the poorhouses, and
the gaols in the States, and to a great extent in Canada,
have more than their proportion of inmates of Irish or their
#PAGE 5
descendants. The emigrant ship, where all sexes are huddled
together, breaks down the barriers of modesty, and opens the
path, in thousands of cases, to ruin. How many a tear has
been dropped by those emigrants for ever having left their
home!"
The Bishop gave a touching description of the condition
of the female emigrants -
"The workhouse system of Ireland is most degrading and
immoral in its tendency, if the tree could be judged by its
fruit. It is humiliating, indeed, to see numbers of poor
Irish girls, innocent and guileless, sitting round in those
large depots in seaport cities waiting to be hired. Men and
women enter those places, and look round to find out the girl
that would apparently answer their service. How many of them
found the protection of the wolf is known only to God!"
The Canadian Bishop conluded with a strong appeal to the
Bishops in Ireland to do something to prevent the Irish
emigration. His high authority was corroborated by a
statement put forward by a correspondent in The Times
newspaper. Writing even before the war broke out, that
gentleman said -
"The papers of all the large cities are filled with
'appeals' from the friends of various eleemosynary and
benevolent societies and institutions for aid, in which the
suffering of orphans, widows and children are set out in the
most touching terms. Washington is filled with misery, nor
have I ever been in any cities in the world in which the
Irish and other poor populations appear to live in more
squalor, or to endure greater privations than in the vile
alleys of New York itself, Pittsburg, Baltimore, New Orleans,
and the other large towns of the Union. No delusion can be
greater than to suppose the poor emigrant at once attains a
greater degree of physical comfort in the States than he has
in his own country."
There was abundant evidence that the people of Ireland,
if driven from their own country, were not driven to a soil
where they could enjoy that happiness which ought to have
been theirs at home. To quit their native land was in itself
a misfortune which they felt more keenly, perhaps, than the
people of any other country in Europe. True, there was a
school of political economists which held that a country
prospered as its population declined. He found that Adam
Smith was not of that opinion. He would invite the attention
of such economists as the Secretary for Ireland and the Lord
Lieutenant to those few words in which Adam Smith said," The
most decisive mark of the prosperity of any country is the
number of its inhabitants." His whole work was an argument
#PAGE 6
to that effect, that labour was the source of wealth, and
population the source of labour. But it was said they had
agricultural labour in Ireland, while what was wanted was
manufacturing industry. On that subject he should like to
quote another sentence from Adam Smith. He says -
" The capital employed in agriculture, therefore, not
only puts into motion a greater quantity of pr[Boductive labour
than any equal capital employed in manufactures; but in
proportion, too, to the quantity of productive labour which
it employs it adds a much greater value to the annual produce
of the land and labour of the country, to the real wealth and
revenue of its inhabitants. Of all the ways in which capital
can be employed it is by far the most advantageous to
society."
He therefore asked the Government and the House to do
something in the direction of keeping the agricultural
population in Ireland and developing her national resources.
Now, what could the House and the Government do? He would
venture to suggest that the Government had the choice of
three courses - they might take one or all of them. They could
introduce into that House and no doubt carry certain
legislative measures long demanded by the people of Ireland,
recommended over and over again by commissions, committees,
and Ministers of the Crown - measures, for instance, such as
the Earl of Derby introduced in the House of Lords in 1845,
but which unhappily did not pass at that time - measures, such
as were introduced in the following year by the Duke of
Newcastle, but which again unfortunately did not pass -
measures introduced by the Earl of Derby's Government in
1852, but did not pass. Why did those measures not pass ?
They were called for by the people of Ireland, and proposed
by influential Ministers. If they did not then pass that was
no reason why they should not have been reintroduced. He
only hoped some Government or another would have the wisdom
and strength to carry a measure which would restore concord
between landlord and tenant in Ireland, and give tenants some
property in the improvements they might make on the land. A
measure of tenant right such as that proposed by any of the
statesman to whom he had referred would be sufficient. But
other things the Government could do. Select Committees and
Royal Commissions had recommended that as Ireland had
formerly been treated exceptionally, so exceptional
legislation might still be adopted especially by the
employment of public money in public works, in reclaiming
waste lands, and in various productive works in Ireland.
Some time after the peace and down to 1830 a good deal of
public money was laid out in that way. The Report of the
#PAGE 7
Select Committee on the state of the poor in Ireland in 1830
said -
" That the effects produced by these public works appear
to have been, extended cultivation, improved habits of
industry, a better administration of justice, the
re-establishment of peace and tranquility in disturbed
districts, a domestic colonization of a population in excess
in certain districts, a diminution of illicit distillation,
and a very considerable increase to the revenue."
Unfortunately, from that day, Government had done
nothing in that direction. The Royal Commission, presided
over by the Earl of Devon, presented one of the most valuable
Reports ever made, and what did it say. It said -
" We believe that in many instances the principles of
sound policy and of a wise economy ought to lead to the
undertaking, at the public cost, of works of this nature,
even although the inhabitants of the district, or the
proprietors of adjoining land, are unwilling or unable to
contribute. While it is true, on the one hand, that
Government ought not to allow the funds of the State to be
applied for the improvement of private property, it is
equally certain, on the other hand, that expenditure upon
works calculated to produce public and general benefit ought
not to be withheld because the operation will at the same
time confer a benefit upon individual proprietors. This
first operation gives encouragement for the outlay of private
capital, and affords facilities for its useful application;
and the joint effect of the whole is at once to stimulate the
industry and increase the comforts of all parties connected
with the immediate locality, and to promote the prosperity of
the whole surrounding district, and thereby to add to the
general resources of the country. We are not, however,
advocates for any indiscriminate advances of public money by
way of grant. We are only desirous of impressing upon those
whose duty calls upon them to consider this matter more
particularly, that cases frequently will and do occur, in
which it is consistent with a wise economy to grant money
from the public funds for the execution of a public work, from
which no direct return is to be expected, and towards which
the neighbouring proprietors are either unable or unwilling
to advance any money."
There had been reports from time to time pointing out
the various parts of Ireland in which such works could be
carried out; yet the Government had done nothing. Looking at
the climate of Ireland, there was no species of public works
that would prove so useful and renumerative as arterial and
main drainage works on a large scale. But Government had
#PAGE 8
done nothing in that way. Last year they had the Report of
Mr. Bateman, to the Treasury, on the state of the Shannon.
The great injury done by the flooding of that river was said
to be owing to certain Government works which were very ill
constructed and only partially completed on the Shannon,
whereby a large district was covered with water, and became
unfit for bearing crops. Mr. Bateman reported that the
injury sustained was very considerable, and that the
liability to occasional flooding was such as to render the
preservation of crops very precarious, and to arrest all
attempts at improved cultivation. It was asserted that the
prevention of the inundations would save property, even in
one year, to the value of more than £30,000. Mr. Bateman
went on to say -
" I therefore propose to provide works at KBillaloe for
the passage of 1,200,000 cubic feet of water per minute,
without allowing the water to rise on the callow lands, and,
at Meelick, for the passage of a flood of 1,000,000 cubic
feet of water per minute, similarly confining the water to
the river channel, and at all other parts of the river in
proportionate quantities, always keeping down the surface of
the river, so that scarcely any of the lands now flooded
shall be ever affected."
The total works were estimated at £283,000. That Report
had been in the hands of the Government since May, 1863, and
yet no steps had been taken to act upon it. A paper had been
presented to the House on the River Barrow, which, with its
tributaries, extended through King's County, Queen's County
and Kildare. That river was recommended to be deepened, and
that operation, if carried out, would, it was believed,
effect the object in view to a very great extent. When the
enormous amount of land lying waste and uncultivated in the
three counties to which that Report referred was considered,
it would be at once seen that the deepening of that river -
a work so gigantic that no proprietor could for a moment be
expected to undertake it - would have the effect which the
Government Commissioners pointed out, would afford immense
employment to the people and be reproductive in its
character. Yet the Government had taken no step whatever, as
the result of that Report, any more than of Mr. Bateman's.
That was not all. The Chairman of the Board of Works, Sir
Richard Griffith - than whom on such subjects there was no
higher authority in the United Kingdom - once published a
very valuable Report on what might be done with the waste
lands of Ireland; and as the Government had never thought fit
to take any action in the matter, he would quote the opinion
of the Devon Commission as to that Report. The Devon
#PAGE 9
Commissioners said -
" Mr. Griffith's valuable Report and Table exhibit the
amount of waste land in the different counties, classified
according to the different degrees of capability for
improvement. They show that Ireland contains waste land -
improvable for tillage, 1,425,000 acres; ditto for pasture,
2,330,000 acres; total improvable, 3,755,000 acres; waste
land unimprovable, 2,535,000 acres - gross total, 6,290,000
acres."
There was a difference between these figures and those
of Mr. Donnelly, arising from the latter gentleman giving
9,000,000 acres as being under grass. It was interesting to
read the Commissioners' remarks on Sir Richard Griffith's
statement as to what might be done with these waste lands,
and the effect which their reclamation would have on the
population. The Commissioners said -
" It thus appears that 192,368 families might be
permanently provided for upon lots about eight acres in
extent by the existing amount of the best quality of
improvable waste land, or that the first and second quality
added together would furnish the same number of families with
farms of about twenty acres each. This would be a permanent
provision for that number of families, comprising above
1,000,000 souls, and may be estimated to abstract permanently
from competition in the present labour market about 300,000
labourers. And, if a proper selection of the waste land
settlers be made, 133,720 families, comprising about 730,460
individuals, would be raised in their condition by the
consolidation up to eight acres of small productive lots at
present inadequate to their support. This would produce a
further abstraction of competitors from the present labour
market of more than 200,000 labourers, making, with the
former number of 300,000, a total of 500,000 labourers
abstracted from competition in the overstocked labour market.
And the evidence leads to the conviction that this result can
be obtained, not only without any permanent loss, but with a
very large permanent gain, as it appears that 3,755,000 acres
of waste land, not now giving a gross produce exceeding on
the average 4s. per acre, may be made to yield a gross
produce of £6 per acre, being a total increase from £751,000
to £22,530,000, and that the first three or four years' crops
would return the cost requisite to bring about this change."
If any other Government in Europe had had such Reports from
men like Sir Richard Griffith and the Devon Commission, they
would long since have expended in a country like Ireland
large sums of public money on works which, as we said, would
in the first three or four years after their execution repay
#PAGE 10
their entire cost. He had said that the Government might
introduce a measure which would give to tenants in Ireland
compensation for the improvements they might make, and which
would have the effect of inducing the Irish farmers to lay
out their money on the land, instead of putting it into the
pocket of the emigration agent and going to America. The
Government might also, as they had been recommended to do by
their own officials, deepen some of the rivers of Ireland, and
promote main and arterial drainage. In addition to that, he
thought they ought to adopt other measures. The fact was, the
people of Ireland not only felt that their complaints,
addressed to that House and the Government, on the land
question, had been disregarded frem [from?] year to year, but
they were under the conviction that any appeal they might
make to the Government or the House was of no avail. He
challenged any Member of the Government to point to one
single instance during the last quarter of a century in which
the people of Ireland had made any representation to the
Government asking for something for Ireland, and in which the
Government had granted it. The Irish people had been in the
habit of petitioning that House year after year; but he did
not think they had petitioned it much that year. Their
petitions had related to the land question, to the relief of
the poor, to the education of the poor - all subjects of
vital interest to them; yet their respectful requests had
produced no effect whatever, and the result was that the
people were beginning to think that to them Parliamentary
representation was useless. Nothing could be more
unfortunate than that they should allow the Irish people to
imagine that calamities were steadily advancing upon their
country, that it was fast losing its population and its
wealth in every branch of industry, and yet that that House
was to remain silent, without expressing its regret at such a
state of decline, and without urging the Government to take
measures whereby capital and labour might be kept in Ireland.
On behalf of these whom he had the honour to represent he
ventured to make his present Motion, and he did so, likewise
believing that if the subject were fully and fairly placed
before the House, the people of Ireland would receive justice
at its hands. In that belief he now took the liberty of
moving the Resolutions which stood in its name.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
" That this House observes with regret that the Agricultural
Population of Ireland are rapidly leaving the Country." -
(Mr. Hennessy.)
#PAGE 11
SIR ROBERT PEEL: Sir, the Motion of the hon [honourable?]
and learned Gentleman touches two main points in connection
with the condition of Ireland - namely, emigration and
agriculture. But on entering into his statement on these two
points he has alluded to several other matters to which I
desire, with the permission of the House, at the outset to
refer. He adverted to the Bill brought in by my right hon.
[honourable?] Friend the Secretary for the Colonies (Mr.
Cardwell), to settle the question of the tenure of land in
Ireland; and I must say it is unfortunate that the Irish
people have not more availed themselves of the opportunities
which that measure offers them. But, leaving that point, the
hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman referred to the
different, and, as he called them, the contradictory
statements of Ministers of the Crown and others as regards
the condition of Ireland. On that the House must feel that
when a state of depression falls upon a country it is often
very difficult to determine accurately what its effects may
be till time has enabled us to judge on the subject; and if
perhaps, I took too favourable a view of the condition of
Ireland in 1861, 1862, or 1863, I was desirous not to paint
things in worse colours than they might turn out. During
those few years Ireland has passed through a serious and
momentous period. Up to 1859 the prospects of that country
were most flourishing, but afterwards she laboured under
excessive drought, and then under very wet seasons, and the
result certainly has been very disastrous. That I fairly
admit. But I think the hon. [honourable?] and learned Member
will agree with me that a wonderful revival is taking place.
And although the emigration continues to a serious extent, I
think I can show him that his statements on that point are
not strictly correct. He thinks there are about 3,000
persons a week at this moment leaving Ireland, and also that
the emigration is proceeding at a greater rate than last year
and the year before. I shall be able to prove that during
the month of May last there has been a sensible diminution in
the numbers leaving the country. The hon. [honourable?] and
learned Gentleman in submitting his Motion to the House laid
down four propositions. He said -
" Look at what the state of the country is, and then
consider what the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and others have
stated, and see how different it is from the prospect which
they held out."
He further stated that the land is going out of
cultivation, that emigration is on the increase, and the
wages of labour are diminishing. The hon. [honourable?]
Gentleman read a portion of a report from Mr. Donnelly,
#PAGE 12
showing that there was a diminution of land under
cultivation. This, however, was partly owing to the
diminution of live stock in the country, and to the land, in
consequence, not being properly cropped. With respect to
pauperism, I receive fortnightly returns from all the
poorhouses in Ireland, and I am happy to state that during
the last three or four fortnights there has been a diminution
of more than 1,000 in the recipients of indoor relief in the
unions of Ireland. [Mr. HENNESSY: As compared with the same
period of last year?] Yes. The hon. [honourable?] and
learned Gentleman has been, I think, rather too severe upon
the various Governments of this country in saying that, for
the last quarter of a century, nothing has been done for
Ireland. There has been, on the contrary, a most anxious
desire on the part of every successive Government during that
time to bring forward measures for the benefit of that
country. He also complained that Sir Richard Griffith made a
Report in 1845 which had never been acted upon. I can assure
him that there are at the present moment between 200,000 and
300,000 acres that were bog and waste lands at the time when
Sir Richard Griffith made his Report, which are at the
present moment under actual cultivation.
I will now discuss the two points to which the hon.
[honourable?] Gentleman has more particularly referred - the
cause of emigration, and the condition of the agricultural
population of Ireland. I will not dispute that in one sense
it is painful to observe the emigration that has been going
on. Every man who has a heart must feel for these poor
people, who are leaving the homes of their fathers and
separating themselves from their families. It is, however,
to be considered that they are leaving their native land to
better their condition, that they are going to join other
members of their families who have preceded them, and that
they have a prospect before long of remitting money to their
friends at home, as other emigrants have done, to the amount
of hundreds of thousands of pounds. If Adam Smith has shown
that labour is the source of wealth, and that population is
the source of labour, I must also maintain that Ireland has
had for many years a redundant population. There have been
in that country a vast number of small occupiers, the holders
of five and ten acres, who did not employ labour. A country
cannot be in a more disastrous condition than to have small
tenures of two, five, and ten acres, which the owners cannot
cultivate for their own advantage, and which hold out no
prospect for the future. In a humanitarian point of view I
may regret the emigration which has been going on; but
considering the interests of the country, it is a benefit,
#PAGE 13
and not to be regretted. Emigration has long been felt to be
necessary in order to put the population of Ireland on a
proper footing. When the population of Ireland was not quite
4,800,000, a Committee of the Irish House of Commons
recommended a system of emigration as a necessary means of
improving the condition of the people. No doubt the
emigration from Ireland during the last twenty or thirty
years has been enormous. I have here the exact figures, from
authentic Returns. Between 1831 and 1841 no less than
400,000 persons left Ireland for the colonies or foreign
countries. That was exclusive of a migration of 200,000 into
England and Scotland. Between 1841 and 1851 the total number
of emigrants from Ireland was 1,240,000. From 1851 to 1860
was a most important period, for not less than 1,190,865 persons
left Ireland during that period. That is, no doubt, an
enormous emigration within twenty years, an amount perhaps
unknown in the annals of any country. I believe a great deal
of the emigration that went on during the latter period is
attributed by men of scientific knowledge and experience to
the famine that visited Ireland in 1845, 1846, and 1847,
which rendered it absolutely impossible for the population of
Ireland to live upon the potato root, and obliged them to
seek the means of livelihood elsewhere. There was a
progressive emigration during 1861 and two following years.
In 1861, 66,396 persons left Ireland; in 1862, 72,730; and
last year the number increased to 117, 820. The hon.
[honourable?] Gentleman has quoted some Returns to show that
a great number of these persons do not go to the United
States of America. I think he is not quite accurate in those
statements. A small portion, no doubt, go to Australia or
Canada, but the vast majority go to the United States. I
believe that there is a Return that about 23,000 able-bodied
Irishmen entered the Federal service last year.
[Mr. HENNESSY: I said between 20,000 and 30,000.] I now come
to the emigration of the present year. The hon.
[honourable?] Gentleman said it is going on at a rate of
3,000 a week, and that it is assuming even larger proportions
than in the previous year. I bekieve that was the case up to
the month of May. The Registrar General states that the
emigration during the months of January, February, March,
April, and May, this year, amounts to 63,833. The emigration
during the corresponding five months of 1863 was 60,246, and
during the same months in 1862 only 31,259. So that the
increase during the first five months of this year over that
of 1862 is nearly double, and is an increase of 3,000 over
that of 1863. Since the month of May, however, I am happy to
say, there has been a sensible check in the stream of
#PAGE 14
emigration from Ireland. In the month of May itself there
was a decrease this year, compared with 1863, of 1,023
emigrants. The information I receive from Cork confirms this
statement. There is evidently in the city, which is one of
the most important ports of departure, a less desire to
emigrate. " The vast tide of emigration, " says one account,
" has begun to decline in a very perceptible manner." The
hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman has referred to the
state of the Irish women in the United States, and there is,
no doubt, a great deal of harrowing truth in the letter he
read. It is too true, I fear, that there are thousands of
these poor deserted Irish girls who are gaining a precarious
livelihood by vice and unhappy means. I have here a
statement copied from the Cork Daily Reporter, and taken from
the most authentic source, that there are no less than 30,000
Irish females who have left home and friends, and are now
walking the streets of New York friendless and deserted.
Well, I do hope when that statement reaches the humble homes
of those who are about to emigrate, that they will take care
to procure sufficient funds to enable them to do so with some
prospect of success, and that their friends will see that in
leaving the shores of Ireland they are, at least, placed in
the hands of those at the other side of the water who will
look after their future condition. The hon. [honourable?] and
learned Gentleman in the course of his speech asserted that
the emigration up to the present time has gone on to the most
unparalleled extent, and no doubt it has; but he did not
mention that there is a great desire on the part of Irish
landlords -- and I think it is very meritorious on their part
-- to get rid of a certain number of the redundant population
on their population on their estates, by providing them with
free passages to America, in order that they may join their
friends and relatives there. There is no doubt that the
Reports of Committees and Commissions, over and over again -
in 1826, 1827, 1830, 1836, and 1841 - have all expressed an
earnest hope that the landlords would do all in their power
to facilitate the emigration of those who were living on
their estates. I read only the other day that a noble Lord
who sits on these benches, and who is a large and most
respected landed proprietor in the county of Kerry - I mean
Lord Castlerosse - had in the most liberal and generous
manner actually paid the emigration expenses of seventy
persons, all of whom were occupying small holdings and doing
badly at home, and his example has been followed by others.
The noble Lord thought, and many landlords thought with him,
that the best way of improving the country was by
facilitating the departure of those poor people, and giving
#PAGE 15
them the means of joining their friends in America. The
hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman said that the state
of Ireland now is worse than it was formerly, and he quoted
the opinion of Mr. Lambert, treasurer of the county of Mayo,
who was examined the other day before a Committee upstairs.
But that opinion must be wholly without foundation in fact,
because it is evident to anybody who looks at the Reports of
the Devon Commission in 1845, and of the Commissions of 1830
and 1836, that the state of the country then was not to be
compared to what it is now. In the Report of the Census
Commission of 1841, it is stated that
" Sixty- eight per cent- i.e. upwards of 5,000,000 - of
the rural population consists of heads of families, without
money, capital, or acquired knowledge i.e. labourers or
persons who obtain the means of existence by employments
requiring little or no instruction. This may include small
farmers up to five acres."
Now, I defy the hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman
to say that such a state of things exists now. And in the
State trials Mr. O'Connell referred to this statement as
representing nearly 70 per cent of the people in a destitute
condition. No one now, not even the hon [honourable?]
Member for Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire) will assert that the
state of Ireland is anything like that pointed out by Mr.
O'Connell. The Devon Commission, whose Report was published
in 1845, state that there were then 2,300,000 persons in a
state of absolute destitution in Ireland. Well, I put it to
those hon.[honourable?] Gentleman who know the country,
whether that condition of things which was shadowed forth by
the Census Committee of 1841 and by the Devon Commission of
1845 now exists. The hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman
has alluded to those early Commissions. I have taken the
pains to read as far as possible the Reports of the
Commissions and Committees of 1826, 1827, 1830, 1836, and
1841, and if the House will allow me I will refer to one or
two statements in those Reports, showing that from the first
those distinguished persons who served upon them always
advocated emigration as the sole means of reviving the
condition of Ireland. In the year 1826 a Select Committee
was appointed to inquire into the expediency of encouraging
emigration, and to them the Reports of 1823, 1824, and 1825
on the state of Ireland were referred. That Committee
reported thus
" The unemployed labourer at home necessary consumes
more than he produces, and the national wealth is diminished
in that proportion."
That was the exact reverse of the doctrine laid down by the
#PAGE 16
hon. [honourable?] and learned Gentleman - that population
was a source of labour and labour a source of wealth. The
Committee then went on to say -
" Your Committee therefore trust that the most
deliberate attention of the proprietors of land in Ireland
would be called to this subject, and that they may be induced
to make voluntary contributions for the purpose of emigration
as a relief from those burdens which, though not legally
imposed, are yet found practically to press upon them from
the superabundance of the pauper population."
Here is an extract from the Report of the Committee of 1829
" The fact is undeniable that generally speaking there
is that excess of labour, as compared with any permanent
demand for it, which has reduced and must keep down the
labourer at the lowest possible amount of subsistence."
And they add -
" Your Committee would particularly wish to press upon
the attention of the House that the evils of population
furnishing an excess of labour above the demand for it
contain within themselves a self-producing and
self-aggravating principle, and that, so long as no measures
are taken to restrain them, they must not only continue to
exist and increase, but by their very existence must prevent
the introduction of that capital which, if introduced, would
diminish the redundancy by establishing a greater equality
between the supply of labour and the effective demand. . .
The evils of a redundant population, with all the incidental
consequences, have been universally felt and acknowledged,
and various suggestions have been made for their partial
relief. But your Committee cannot but express their opinion
that a more effectual remedy than any of those temporary
palliatives which had been offered is to be found in the
removal by emigration of that excess of labour by which the
condition of the whole labouring classes is deteriorated and
degraded. The question of emigration as connected with
Ireland has been already decided by the population itself,
and that which remains for the Legislature to decide is to
what points the emigration should be directed."
In short, all the Reports say that the remedy for the evils
complained of was to be found in emigration, and all urged
its necessity. The following passage occurs in the Report of
the Commissioners of 1836:-
"There is not in Ireland the division of labour that
exists in Great Britain ; the body of the labouring class
look to agricultural employment, and to it only, for support;
the supply of agriculture labour is thus so considerable as
greatly to exceed the demand for it; hence come small
#PAGE 17
earnings and wide-spread misery."
That is but a brief outline of the expressions used in the
various Reports.
I come now to the last part of the Resolution - namely,
that which regards the state of agriculture in Ireland. The
hon.[honourable?] and learned Gentleman has omitted one or
two paragraphs which he originally contemplated introducing in
his Motion. The hon.[honourable?] and learned Member's
Motion expresses a trust that the Government would direct
their attention to the subject he has brought under the
notice of the House, with a view of devising some means by
which the Irish agricultural population may be induced to
devote their capital and labour to reproductive employment at
home. There is no doubt that the land question has a great
deal to do with much of the distress that exists in Ireland.
It is clear to every one who considers the question, that in
any country where the seasons are uncertain and hazardous,
and where the occupier cannot enter on a fair rotation of
crops, he cannot easily recover himself from the loss he may
incur on one crop. It is a fact that in joint-stock banks
there are placed, at the rate of only 2 per cent, sums
principally belonging to the farming class in Ireland,
amounting to upwards of £14,000,000, some portion of which
vast amount the occupier of land would naturally be inclined
to employ in the improvement of the land if he had a
certainty of being renumerated for the investment in the
course of a series of years by a fair rotation of crops. No
doubt the Land Improvement Act of 1860 was intended by the
Legislature to work good in that way; but I believe that
every one admits that it has been to a great extent a failure.
Considering the number of measures which have been passed for
the improvement of land, it is to be deplored that the landlords
of Ireland have not availed themselves more of the facilities
placed at their disposal by the Legislature as they might
have been fairly expected to do. At the same time, whatever
may be proposed tending to improve the condition of the
agricultural population, and the occupiers of those very
small holdings in Ireland, is well worthy the attention and
consideration of the House. I stated last year, in answer to
the Motion of the hon. [honourable?] Member for Kildare, that
I considered it desirable that something should be done in that
direction; but I always said that, as a proprietor of land
myself, I must strenuously set my face against the schemes
propounded by some gentlemen in Ireland. In reference to the
agricultural produce of Ireland the hon. [honourable?] and
learned Gentleman has quoted from the returns of Mr. Donelly,
the Irish Registrar General, and has endeavoured to show that
#PAGE 18
land is going out of cultivation, and that a serious state of
things is occurring. No doubt it is perfectly true that with
regard to the cultivation of cereals there has been a
decrease in the acreage to the extent of 143,534, but at the
same time there has been an increase in the acreage under
flax cultivation to the extent of 64,922 acres in the present
year as compared with the last. It is also a curious fact,
that while the land under cultivation for wheat decreased in
1863, the produce on the diminished acreage exceeded that of
1862 by 154,858 quarters. With regard to potatoes, there was
a slight increase of acreage under cultivation in 1863,
amounting to some 5,000 acres, but the yield was no less than
1,927,547 tons more than in the preceding year. There has
been a great movement in respect to flax, and nothing is more
interesting than the facts concerning the cultivation of flax
in Ireland at the present moment. I have a most interesting
Return showing the enormous development of this cultivation.
In 1854 there were 151,403 acres under flax cultivation, but
in 1863 there were 214,063 acres under that cultivation. This
is a great development, and I hope the movement will be
attended with success. I am informed that in the course of
the present year there is a breadth of land under flax
cultivation to the extent of one quarter more than 1863, that
is to say, there is at this moment about 300,000 acres under
flax cultivation. Considering the benefit which the investment
of so much capital in that cultivation must produce, I think
that the greatest credit is due to men like the hon.
[honourable?] Member for Dungarvan, who was among the first
to take up the question of the cultivation of flax. I was
reading the other day some Returns from India, showing what
has been done there by the people turning to proper account
lands fit for the cultivation of cotton and tea. In 1861 the
Indian cotton crop produced about £9,000,000, and in 1863 it
was estimated at £43,000,000. With regard to tea, the Indian
exports of tea in 1861 were worth £17,244, but in 1863 they
had risen to £192,242 in value. I am, therefore, entitled to
ask, why may not Ireland make an equal advance in the
cultivation of flax, if people only turn their attention to
it; and I trust that the expectations formed of this movement
in Ireland on this subject may be realized. The hon.
[honourable?] and learned Gentleman referred to the waste
land of Ireland, and said that from the time of Sir Richard
Griffith's Report in 1845, the different administrations of
the country had done nothing to remedy the state of things.
That Report was made on the subject. A Report was made and
an Act passed in the Irish Parliament as far back as the
year 1731, for reclaiming waste and bog land, and up to 1798
#PAGE 19
a succession of measures was passed in Ireland for the same
object, but not a single step was taken to put them in
execution. Even so far back as 1809 the British Government
issued a Commission, which reported on the practicability of
reclaiming the waste lands of Ireland. Nothing, however, was
done until the Report of Sir Richard Griffith in 1845. The
hon. [honourable?] and learned Gentleman has said that there
are 6,000,000 acres of land in Ireland now lying waste, but
that statement is, I think, scarcely warranted by the facts
of the case. The works were commenced in 1846, the year
after the Report; and since that period, of the 3,755,000
acres there stated to be improvable more than one-half have
been recaimed. Therefore, instead of the 3,500,000 acres
alleged, there must, I think, be less than one-half that
quantity now available for improvement. The hon.
[honourable?] and learned Member should recollect that the
Lands Improvement Acts authorize loans for the purpose of
reclaiming waste lands, and that advantage has been taken of
these provisions. Much, no doubt, may yet be done, but I
have not the power to state, on my own authority, that the
Government is prepared to recommend extensive works such as
that reported on by Mr. Bateman. My hon. [honourable?] and
learned Friend says that if we look around in Ireland we see
in all directions trade, commerce, in fact, everything
declining. Surely that cannot be true! We have only to read
the Reports of the monthly fairs, and of the trade at
Waterford, Londonderry, Belfast, Dublin, &c., to find that in
every instance a very considerable development has taken
place in the material prosperity of the country. Let us take
the case of Waterford for example. The tonnage in 1864 was
398,771 against 398,281 in 1863, thus showing an increase of
12,490 tons, or about 3 per cent. Similar results are to be
obseved at Londonderry. In 1840 the tonnage of the vessels
trading to Derry was 84,178 tons. In 1850 the gross tonnage
was 161,539, or nearly twice as much as that of 1840, and in
1860 the tonnage was 247,121, or treble what it was twenty
years before. These figures certainly do not bear out the
assertion of my hon. [honourable?] and learned Friend. I
have received letters from different parts of the country,
all affording evidence of the improvement which has taken
place in the state of affairs. One correspondent in Kerry
writes-
" You will be glad, I know, to hear that our prospects
never were brighter in this country than they are at present,
and all our crops are looking splendid, thank God!"
The prospects of Ireland generally are equally good, and I
might refer to the Reports from Belfast, Limerick, and
#PAGE 20
elsewhere to illustrate the hopeful condition of the country,
if I were not unwilling to trespass longer on the time of the
House. It may be true, as the hon. [honourable?] Gentleman
has said, that labour is a source of wealth and population a
source of labour, but there may be a state of things, as in
Ireland, which requires a remedy to be applied in the shape
of encouragement to emigration. I agree with the hon.
[honourable?] Member that the best capital of Ireland is the
industry of her people; and none can deny that an impetus has
been given to that industry. Tillage is considerably
improved, and the amount of agricultural produce has
increased. In fact, capital is generally being brought into
very active and successful exercise. Whatever the past may
have been, this is not a time to despond in regard to the
future. Ireland is essentially an agricultural country, and
exertions are now being made for the establishment of farming
societies, which will, I believe, be of great advantage by
bringing together different classes for the consideration of
matters connected with their common interests. Property is
every day becoming more valuable in Ireland, and surely the
comfort of the community must be on the increase. I thank
the House for the opportunity of showing what has been done
for Ireland, and I rejoice to think that in 1864 we do not
find as in past years, political partisans endeavouring to
make capital out of the calamities of Ireland. We all of us,
I hope, wish to do our best for the regeneration of the
country. It has passed through several series of bad years -
from 1838 to 1842, from 1845 to 1847, and lately from 1859 to
1863; but, thank God! a happier time seems to have commenced.
The improvement is owing, I am bound to say, not so much to
the measures of the Government as to the energies of the
great bulk of the people. I hope they will continue to be
animated by the same spirit, and, whatever Government may
hold office in this country, I am sure that there will be an
anxious and earnest desire to promote those measures that may
tend to promote the advancement and prosperity of Ireland,
and thereby to enhance the peace and general welfare of the
United Kingdom.
MR. MAGUIRE expressed his admiration of the tone and
temper in which the right hon. [honourable?] Baronet the
Chief Secretary for Ireland had addressed the House. He felt
certain that there was no Irish Member, on whichever side of
the House he might sit, but would feel that the right hon.
[honourable?] Baronet had risen to the dignity of his office,
and had demeaned himself not only with courtesy to
individuals, but with a gravity that the importance of the
subject required. The right hon. [honourable?] Baronet had
#PAGE 21
made a graceful admission that night, and one which he felt
the more keenly as it had been his painful duty on many
occasions to bring the state of Ireland under the notice of
the House. He assured the right hon. [honourable?] Baronet
now that the crisis was over, that he was urged to do so from
an overpowering sense of his duty. It was painful to Irish
Members to have to appeal ad misericordiam to the House, for
they would rather see the bright than the dark side of the
mantle, and he was glad to find that he had been vindicated
that night by the statements of the right hon. [honourable?]
Baronet. The statements he had made on a former occasion the
House would see had been fully justified by the facts. He
hoped, therefore, if such a state of things again arose , he
should not be met in future as he had been in times past when
urging them on the attention of the Government. The right
hon. [honourable?] Gentleman had obliterated the past by the
frank and cordial manner in which he had represented the true
state of things in Ireland. The hon. [honourable?] and
learned Member for the King's County (Mr. Hennessy) also
deserved credit for having brought this matter under the
notice of the House, because the state of things in Ireland,
above almost any other question that could be named, ought to
interest the Parliament and people of England. They would
soon see the House in a state of great excitement, each party
levelling its taunts against the other, and banding
criminations from side to side in a hearty and deadly
struggle for office on the subject of Denmark. In the
country of Denmark, however, he had no special interest, and
though he admitted its importance, he considered the
condition of Ireland and how it could be improved a question
of far greater gravity, and one that ought to arrest the
attention of both sides of the House; and he believed that
tha statesman who took up the question of Ireland, and dealt
with it boldly and courageously, as the late Sir Robert
Peel did, would do more for his own name and honour than if
he shone in a great party battle which had only a selfish
object for its end. He did not expect that immediate
legislation upon the condition of Ireland would follow from
this discussion; but enough had been said to convince the
House that there was something wrong in the state of Ireland,
and to induce the Government to consider the subject during
the recess, with the view of introducing some substantive
legislation next Session. The right hon. [honourable?]
Baronet had said that since 1840 a large number of acres of
waste land had been reclaimed; but he had not alluded to the
still more startling fact, which could not be disputed, that
200,000 acres of cultivated land had relapsed into sterility
#PAGE 22
in two years. The right hon. [honourable?] Gentleman had
also mentioned in proof of the great resources of Ireland,
that £14,000,000 of capital were in the banks of that
country; but the right hon. [honourable?] Baronet had not
urged it to its proper result - namely, that the people
allowed it to remain there almost useless, and unproductive,
because they had not sufficient faith in the security of the
great bank of nature - the land. He believed that not
one-tenth of the land of Ireland was properly cultivated, and
the reason was that the people had not faith in the security,
and they hoarded their money with the object of leaving the
country rather than remaining in it. He believed that until
the land question was settled they could not have permanent
prosperity in Ireland. It was an exceptional state of things
in Ireland and it justified exceptional measures, as had been
stated by Lord Derby, Lord Palmerston, and every Minister
that had endeavoured to interfere with the land question.
There were some exceptions, but as a rule what had been done
in Ireland had been done by the tenants; and therefore it was
the duty of Parliament to protect the tenant, by giving him
compensation for unexhausted improvements, where he was
arbitrarily removed from the land. A measure of that kind
would soon change the face of Ireland, for the people
themselves had a capital in their thews and sinews and in
their energy and industry, and there was a great desire to be
energetic and industrious in the humble farmers of Ireland as
there was in the people of any country on the face of the
earth; and if the Government wanted them to take their
£14,000,000 from the banks, where it yielded no more than 1
or 2 per cent, they had only to give them proper security for
their investments in land. England had had the sole and
uninterrupted management of Ireland for the last sixty-four
years. The native Parliament of that country had been
destroyed. His firm conviction was that if there had been a
Parliament in Ireland at this moment the state of things
would have been very different, and the resources of Ireland
would be developed. No matter what differences might exist
about religion, or whatever causes of strife might exist,
there would be sufficient self-interest to develop the
resources of the country. After the lapse of sixty-four
years Ireland was going back, and although there might be a
little activity along her seaboards, that activity was partly
factitious because it was owing to foreign vessels bringing
in food, whereas Ireland ought to be an exporting and not an
importing country. There was another sign of activity in
some parts. But what was it? What brought English vessels
into Cork Harbour? Emigration. There were two or three
#PAGE 23
vessels leaving that port every week; but a fortnight ago
there were not a sufficient number of vessels to carry off
the emigrants. What was the feeling of the people of Ireland
on this subject? The feeling of a large portion of the
people of the south of Ireland was one of utter insecurity,
of disgust with the country, of a desire to change at any
risk or any hazard. The Catholic Bishops and clergy and the
Liberal press had done their best to dissuade the people from
reckless emigration, but they could not stop the rush which
was taking place from the shores of Ireland. Of course there
were many reasons why the emigration was going on. Higher
wages could be obtained in America or Australia; and the fact
that they had relatives there of course operated as an
inducement to them to cross the Atlantic; but the fact
was undeniable that there was a rush from the country, which
plainly showed that there was something wrong. The farmer
had no security, and, therefore, he would not improve his
farm, and therefore there was a smaller demand for ordinary
labourers. If the farmer had security that his improvements
would become his property, the face of Ireland would be
changed, and, instead of being half cultivated, it would be
equal to the best parts of England. The state of things was
this: nine-tenths of the agriculturists of Ireland held at
will. If all landlords were like the noble Lord the Member
for Kerry (Lord Castlerosse) and his hon. [honourable?]
Friend the Member for Clonmel (Mr. Bagwell), a change in the
law of landlord and tenant might not be necessary. But
there were hundreds and thousands of estates which had been
purchased under the Incumbered Estates Act which were a
blister and a curse to the country. The owner could raise
the rent of the tenant, could turn him out at a few months
notice, and possess himself of the property. Many owners had
done so, and the result was that the people were discouraged
and dissatisfied, and were rushing away. An Act had, it was
true, been passed in 1860 with a view of improving the
condition of the tenant; but that Act had turned out a dead
letter, and he trusted that his right hon. [honourable?]
Friend the Chief Secretary would during the recess, turn his
attention to framing a measure by which that Act would be
amended. It was admitted that since 1831 three millions and
a half of people had left the shores of Ireland. It was true
that some had gone to join the Federal armies. The blood of
many was reeking to heaven, and called for heavy vengeance on
some persons who were continuing the unnatural conflict. But
if it ceased tomorrow, he believed the tide of emigration
would flow on unchecked. The matter was one, he might add,
which very seriously affected England herself. There was no
#PAGE 24
recruiting going on in Cork, and very little in Munster. The
fighting part of the population had gone to fill the ranks of
the Federal army. Now, England ought rather to encourage the
people to remain in Ireland than to go away. It would not be
well for England to have the population of Ireland reduced to
three or four millions. Some years ago it was said that
emigration was a panacea for the ills of that country. But
Ireland had not only bled from the veins, but from the
arteries; and, surely, no one could now say there was a
superabundant population. The small landowners were
disappearing every day, and the number of large farms was
increasing. This, then, was the proper time for a good
landlord and tenant law which would allow the people to
defend themselves. The right hon. [honourable?] Baronet had
certainly spoken in kindly terms; but it would be much more
gratifying if at the commencement of the next Session he
would lay on the table some measure calculated to improve the
condition of Ireland. He admitted that some gentlemen were
endeavouring to introduce manufactures into that country; but
Ireland being an agricultural country there ought to be a
landlord and tenant law of a comprehensive character. Unless
some change of that nature took place, if another bad season
should occur, the scenes of ruin and disaster which had been
witnessed would be again witnessed. The Government of
Ireland by England was pointed to by Frenchmen and Italians
and Spaniards as a source of shame to the latter, and
Englishmen ought, he thought, to be anxious to wipe away any
cause of reproach on that score by, at all events, passing a
law which in the opinion of nine-tenths of the Irish people
was essential to the welfare of the country. The present law
was a mockery. What was required was a reality. If that was
given, Ireland would be in that position which she would
occupy were she governed by her own laws, her own sons, and
her own Parliament.
MR. MONSELL said, the enormous increase of emigration
from Ireland gave him the deepest pain, and he was convinced
that if it went on the results would be most disastrous. The
richer portion of Ireland, such as that with which he was
connected, would probably not suffer so much, but in the
poorer portions land which was yielding from 16s. to 20s. per
acre rent would be turned to growing bog grass. It was time
that the Government and Parliament, in the interest of the
landed proprietors themselves, looked the matter seriously in
the face. The experiment of bloodletting to cure the evils
of Ireland had been tried often enough and had failed. The
right hon.[ honourable?] Baronet, in the quotations he had
made from the Reports of various Committees and
#PAGE 25
Commissioners, had not taken into account the entire
