DISTRESS OF THE LABOURING CLASSES
- REDUNDANT POPULATION.
Mr. Wilmot Horton began by making some allusion
to the determination of the House to prolong
the present discussion, in order to prevent
him from bringing his Resolutions forward,
which was not distinctly heard in the Gallery
and by expressing his wish then to go into
them. He said he differed from some of the
opinions which he had that night heard. One
hon. member had laid great stress on the
different price of corn in this country, and
on the consequent higher rate of wages as
producing distress, by rendering us unable
to compete with other nations in the markets
of the world. There was, he thought, a
great fallacy in this argument. A great
portion of our labour was done by machinery,
which was fixed capital; and by labour,
which was circulating capital; while a
much larger portion of the labour of other
countries was performed by mere manual
labour. If the productions of this country
were carried on wholly by manual labour,
the argument would be correct; but as a
great part of them was the effect of
machinery, the argument did not hold good.
Our power to compete with other nations
would depend on the quantity and excellence
of our machinery, as well as on the price
of labour, and we should outstrip other
countries, in proportion as our fixed
capital was greater than theirs. This was
the key to what some people regarded as a
paradox; namely, that dear wages were not
a source of disadvantage of this country.
He had heard some members attribute the
distress at Spitalfields to the increased
production at Manchester; and if trade went
from one place to another, why did not the
artisan follow it, but from this same
cause, that the manufactory was carried on
by machinery in both places. From observing
this state of things, he had come to the
conclusion that the labourers now out of
employ were not likely to find employment,
because they had been superseded by machinery;
and he looked upon the hopes of finding
employment for them as unfounded unless
it could be shewn [shown?] how they could
be profitably employed. His hon. friend
who had just addressed the House had
said something of pseudo-philosophers;
and, perhaps, meant (continued Mr. W. Horton)
to apply his remarks to what I intend to
propose, but if the House will allow me
I will now venture, considering the
subject of great importance, to move my
resolutions, to the effect that great
distress exists, and that we will take that
distress into our consideration, with a
view to find remedies for it at the
earliest possible period. I would not
venture to state my own opinion, but it is
supported by the best authority, both in
this country and in other parts of
Europe. If the House will hear me, that
is all I at present wish. I mean to place
my resolutions on the Journals, where I
hope they will be allowed to be placed.
They will not pledge parliament to
any thing, but merely invite its attention,
and the attention of the country, to a
most important subject. My first resolution
is to this effect - that there is a large
portion of our able bodied population,
out of employment, and a larger proportion
who are receiving inadequate wages. He
begged the House to recollect the manner
in which the agricultural districts, and
particularly Ireland, and some parts of
England, were oppressed by an excessive
population. It was impossible, in a
country like ours, there should not be
occasional gluts in the market and an
occasional increased demand for labour,
which did not immediately adjust themselves.
But for the manner in which the agricultural
districts were oppressed by population,
the surplus hands in manufactures might
occasionally find employment in the
agricultural districts; but that was not
now possible and every time there was a
glut in the market for manufacturers there
was great distress in the manufacturing
districts. His second resolution would
only state the fact, that at present a
heavy expense and burthen were imposed on
the country for the support of the poor,
either by direct or indirect means. In
speaking of indirect means, he alluded
particularly to Ireland; in which the state
of the population, frequently out of
employment, and operating to prevent the
introduction of capital and manufactures
into that country, imposed a great indirect
tax on that country, for the support of
those who could not possibly find employment.
But the main principle on which I rely, and
which is my third resolution, is, that both
labour and population are redundant - that
the supply is greater than the demand for
labour, and that no improvement can take
place in the condition of the labourer
until the proportion between the supply
and the demand is corrected. If this main
principle were true, all the other remedies
would not reach the bottom of the case; the
artizan would not find sufficient employment,
and would not be sufficiently well paid for
his services. - He knew, he said, the
objection which the House had to listen to
the opinions of the speculative man, and
therefore he would not quote any of the
philosophers in support of his view; but
would take the opinion of a plain, practical
man, who was sent from Glasgow as the
representative of eleven thousand weavers,
and who had given his evidence before the
Emigration Committee. Mr. Northouse had given
an extemporaneous answer to a question put
to him, which was the strongest confirmation
of the doctrine which he wished to press
on the attention of the House. The right
hon. member then read an extract from
Mr. Northouse's evidence before the committee
to show that a greater relief would be given
by removing a portion of the labouring
population, than corresponded to the number
removed. The reason Mr. Northouse give for
this was, that when there was an excess of
labourers only to a very small amount, the
few who were out of employment offered
their services for a smaller sum, and
reduced the wages of the whole. On the
other hand, when there was a want of labourers,
the masters, anxious to get workmen, bid
against each other, and wages were rised [raised?]
beyond what might be supposed. He considered
these principles as particularly applicable
to the manufacturing classes, and he would
then show, from an authentic document, what
was the state of our agricultural population.
A paper had been laid before the House,
describing the state of the population in
three agricultural parishes in Sussex. The
paper had been drawn up in answer to a series
of questions submitted to those parishes
by an ordinary baronet. Those parishes had
been asked, what proportion the labourers
in them bore to the quantity of employment.
They were asked, what number of labourers
were required for the farm work, what number
for mending roads, &c. The returns shewed
that these parishes were subject to an
enormous expense to support the unemployed
poor. In Shipley, the answer was, that the
farm work required one hundred and sixty
labourers, making and keeping the roads in
repairs, six, and there were fifty to spare,
or two hundred and twenty in whole. In West
Grinstead, there were forty disposable
labourers. In the third parish, fifty persons
were required to perform the work, and
twenty-four labourers could be spared.
Under such circumstances, it was to be
supposed, that the agricultural population
was excessive throughout the country. It
was known to be throughout the Weald of
Sussex; and he should wish a series of
similar questions to be addressed to every
parish in the Kingdom, as well as the
expense it was liable to for the poor.
It was most desirable to know what was
the proportion of redundant population to
employment in every part of the country.
If it were true, that the agricultural
population were excessive, it was plain
that our manufacturers, whenever they
were out of employment, could find no
resource in our agricultural districts.
What, then, must be the consequence? To
him this seemed one of the most important
questions members could ask themselves.
That excessive population was a great tax
on the wealth of the country; it
deteriorated the wages of labour, and as
long as the population was redundant, that
deterioration would continue greatly to
the disadvantage of the country. He could
never suppose that any man could contemplate
with satisfaction the spectacle of a large
mass of the population reduced to the most
deplorable state of poverty. Such a
population made every institution insecure,
and endangered property itself. It was most
desirable to know the causes and remedies
for this state of things; and under a
government like our, which was celebrated
as the best in the world, it was necessary
to know their real cause, and if possible,
provide a remedy.
He was not anxious to discuss all the bearings
of the proposition he had laid down; but to
him its truth appeared indisputable, and he
wished to see its fallacy, if it were not
true, exposed. The hon. member for Newark,
says population could not be excessive; and,
he probably, being able to find employment
for them, would point out the means of doing
so to the House. Some gentlemen had spoken
of partial remedies. Some had ascribed our
distress to the currency, and proposed to
alter it. In his opinion, it would be most
unwise now to alter the currency; but if
it were altered, he was at a loss to know
what influence that would have on the
wages of our redundant population? What
effect, for example, would any change of
currency have on the population of such
a place as Shipley? All changes in value
equally affected all classes; and how they
could affect only one class, was to him
an enigma. - Another party said that a
change in the Corn-laws would remedy the
evil, but they must be mere theories;
for it was quite certain that the
parliament would not allow that law to
be altered which was so lately passed.
But if the Corn-laws were altered, the
alteration would remedy the evils to which
he had called the attention of the House?
It was, however, a waste of time to argue
on a supposition that could not be realized.
No change would take place in the Corn-laws;
no alteration would be made in the currency;
and if either were made, it would not have
any influence on the present distress. If,
then, it was true, that there was a
redundant population in Ireland and England,
what remedy could be found for the state of
our population? His next resolution he had
drawn up in the following terms:- "That the
improvement in the condition of the labouring
classes could only take place either by the
increase of the funds for employment of
labour by the diminution of the supply of
labour, or by compound operation of both
causes". In support of the position he read
an extract of a letter from Mr. Tooke, which
was also confirmed by the opinion of Mr. Malthus.
It seemed to him that the proposition was in
itself so plain as not to require either
argument or authority. Among the latter, he
might add the name of Mr. McCulloch; Mr. Ricardo
and colonel Tarrens and both written and spoken
to the same effect; and if it were necessary
to multiply names, it would not be difficult
to do so. Leaving authority, however, he would
appeal to fact and experience, and would direct
attention to what had occurred in the village
of Shipley. From that immediate vicinity, two
hundred and fifty persons had been removed to
Canada and, of course, the rest of the
population had been greatly relieved from the
pressure of a heavy burthen. It had been said
that the project he wished to promote would
inevitably fail; because the vacuum thus
created would be so speedily filled up, that
the benefit would scarcely be felt. At all
events that vacuum had not yet been supplied.
When people talked about this subject, they
seemed to fancy that there would be an almost
immediate importation of labourers into the
place thus relieved; as if they would be
brought at once in a body from Russia, or
some nearer country where there was a
superabundant population. Those who supposed
that the place of the paupers removed would
be speedily occupied again, and thus defeat
the object in view, argued upon mistaken
premises. In his opinion, founded upon reason
and experience, it would take many years to
supply the vacuum, especially in agricultural
districts. How was it possible to be
otherwise? The population left behind was
fully equal to the performance of all the
labour that was to be done; those who were
removed to foreign settlements had been
unable to procure work before their departure;
and many of those who remained could only
procure enough for the bare support of their
families. Hence, it was obvious that there
was no superabundance of work to invite an
accession of labourers, and, probably, at
least twenty years would be required for the
purpose, according to the progressive
increase of population. The hon. member for
Newark, grounding himself upon the supposed
contents of the report of the Emigration
Committee, had charged him and that committee
with cruelty, in promoting the export of
individuals from their homes to a distant
foreign settlement, where they were exposed
to all kinds of sufferings, and to the
unchecked ravages of disease. He challenged
the hon. member for Newark to produce his
authority for such a statement. It was
founded upon misapprehension and misinformation;
and, in addition to his other errors, the
hon. member had selected the most unfavourable
year, 1825, instead of 1826, from which only
it was fair to judge of the prospects and
advantages of colonization. The hon. member
had asserted that the mortality among the
emigrants to Canada in that year had been
dreadful; that it was greater than in the
fever hospitals of Dublin, or during the
ravages of the plague of Constantinople;
and that no less than one in every fourteen
had fallen victim to this new scheme of
compulsory emigration. Upon this foundation,
the charge of cruelty against him (Mr. W. Horton)
and the Committee on Emigration rested. But
a reference to the real facts of the case,
and to the result of the experience of two
years, showed that it was destitute of
foundation. Of course, neither he nor those
who had assisted him in his enquires up
stairs, had had any other object in view
than the promotion of the national advantage;
but they were far from being desirous of
accomplishing this beneficial object at the
expense of the happiness, and even the lives,
of the unfortunate. It was natural to expect,
under all the circumstances that a greater
number of the emigrants would die than if
they had remained in this country; but,
according to no far calculation could the
mortality be made to exceed one in every
twenty-one; and in some unhealthy parts,
even of the United Kingdom, it was not a
vast deal less. Carlisle was considered one
of the healthiest towns in England. The
mortality there was one in forty. In
considering this point, also, it was not
to be forgotten that most of the emigrants
had been reduced to the lowest state of
wretchedness before they left the country;
so that they were not only more subject to
disease, but less capable of resisting its
attacks. On the whole, he was satisfied
that the most important interests of the
country would be promoted by encouraging
colonization upon the plan he had
recommended.
Mr. Sadler said, he felt himself called upon
to say a few words after what had fallen
from the right hon. gentleman. He had, as
it were, been put upon his defence. He had
been accused of having taken a limited and
partial view of the question, because he
had confined himself to the emigration of
the year 1825. The reason why he had referred
almost exclusively to the emigration of that
year was, because the right hon. gentleman,
and others, had repeatedly directed the
attention of parliament to it. The right
hon. gentleman declared, that he had
overstated the ratio of mortality amongst
the emigration party when he fixed it at
one in fourteen, it being (it was now asserted)
only one in twenty-one. He could only say that
his statement was founded on the report. But
taking the fact upon the showing of the right
hon. gentleman, the degree of mortality was
quite appalling. It was threefold the amount
of that which occurred in this country; for
here the deaths were only as one in sixty.
It should be recollected. too, the report
stated, that there were sixty-one births
amongst the party, which altogether consisted
of eight hundred and forty-five persons.
This was a degree of fecundity unknown in
this country; but see how this circumstance
proved the disastrous results which attended
the emigrating party.
The births in the United States were as compared
with the deaths three to one. In this country
they were only two to one. Amongst this party,
however, the deaths, as compared with the
births, were more than two to one; the former
being one hundred and thirty-one, and the latter
sixty-one. This was a degree of mortality
exceeding that experienced in the fever hospitals
of Dublin, during a recent natural calamity:-
Now, with respect to the alleged redundancy
of human beings in this country, he hoped it
would not be considered invidious in him to
remark, that that had always been the complaint
of a certain class of reasoners from the
earliest periods of our history; and the
complaint had always been the loudest, when
human beings were most thinly scattered.
This complaint was universal in uncivilized
countries. The savage, roaming on his square
mile, cried out, that if the population
were not thinned he must be starved to death.
Where men were most thinly scattered, then
was their condition most wretched and
degraded. Where they were most crowded,
there were they most prosperous and happy.
He would touch very briefly upon some
historical points, to show how prevalent
the complaint of a redundant population
had been from the earliest periods down to
the present day. In the time of Henry 8th
the idea prevailed that there was a
redundancy of human beings in the country,
and this idea was countenanced by some
who ought to have known better. Sir Thomas
More, for instance, said, that "human beings
were so redundant, that the only relief
that could be hoped for was, that people
would devour each other". At that time
when such evils were apprehended from
redundancy, the population was not a third
or a fourth of its present amount. King
Henry, however, hit a more effectual way
of thinning the population, than that
hinted at by More; for in his reign seventy
thousand persons were put out of existence
by the hand of the executioner. In
Elizabeth's time also the idea of a
redundant population prevailed, but it
was refuted by the honest chronicler
Holinshed, who said in his peculiar style,
that he could compare the individuals who
broached it only to the pope or the devil.
In the time of James 1st, measures were
taken in the House of Commons to repress
the population of the country. Those
measures were resisted by the great Bacon,
who said, that no such proposal could
be entertained whilst there existed the
manifest badges and marks of paucity, and
not redundancy of population amongst us.
He said in his own magnificent language
"While we have waste lands in the country,
and whilst we are surrounded by waste seas,
the population never can be redundant".
A high authority in Cromwell's time adopted
the notion of a redundant population; but
he did not propose the remedy the proposed
evil by shipping off only the poorer
classes to distant parts. He first,
suggested that the population should be
kept under by the abstinence of individuals,
and in the second place, called on the
magistrates to send out of the country the
surcharge population of all classes. Now,
he would venture to assert, that at the
present moment there was less occasion than
at any former period to resort to emigration.
The report of the committee on the wages of
agricultural labourers stated that there was
a redundancy of that class of the community.
He regretted that the committee should have
given expression to such an opinion;
because its natural tendency was to check
any attempt to ameliorate the condition of
that class. He admitted that the agricultural
labourers were at present suffering under the
deepest distress. He knew that they rarely
tasted the viands which their ill-requited
labour produced for the rest of the community.
Their distress, however, was not to be
attributed to redundancy of population. How
stood the fact? Labour was exceedingly scarce
in Summer, and exceedingly superabundant in
winter. It was a well known fact, that the
harvest could not be got in, in particular
districts, by the resident labourers without
an importation of Irish. How, then, could
any man presume to say that there was a
redundancy of agricultural labours? To
refer to the numbers out of employment during
the winter was of little purpose; for that
was the season when agricultural labour was
always superfluous. He objected to the
deportation which the right hon. Gentleman
recommended; not only because of the amount
of expense and suffering which attended it,
but also with reference to the class of
people deported. The persons selected were
not the halt and the blind, but the select
portion of the community. One of the
witnesses examined by the committee was
asked, what had been the effect of emigration
in a particular district? He replied, that he
"perceived no effect, except that it had
deprived them of a certain proportion of
their most industrious labourers and cleverest
mechanics". - He would not then enter at
greater length into the question. He
entertained his opinions with the same
sincerity, and in the same spirit of
philanthropy and benevolence, as the right
hon. gentleman. We had within ourselves the
elements of prosperity. He would call
attention to the fact, that while mankind
were held in slavery and thraldom, no one was
so foolish as to say, that slaves were not
valuable to those who possessed them. In
those times human beings were never deemed
superfluous. It used formerly to be said that
"the day which made a man a slave took away
half of his value". Within our population,
now so much complained off, we possessed
mines of wealth, compared with which the
gems of India and the metals of America were
utterly worthless. The hon. member concluded
with saying he would appose the right hon.
gentleman's plans, being convinced that the
best colonies we could plant, with respect
to the interests of the agriculturers and
manufacturers of England, were those which
might be established in the uncultivated
deserts of our European Empire.
Mr. Huskisson, after pointing out that the
hon. gentleman who spoke last was in error
as to the motion before the House, which he
had evidently mistaken for a proposition in
favour of emigration, proceeded to remark,
that he would not detain the House at any
length. The question before the House really
was, whether the petition from Birmingham
should be brought up? On that occasion and
and at that period of the session, and at
that hour of the evening, he would not attempt
to go into the discussion of that interesting
and important subject, to which the petition
related. He regretted that a fit occasion for
a full and fair discussion of it had been
lost by the House by accident. With respects
to the remarks of the hon. member for Newark
- neither was he going to discuss at length
the important subject of emigration; but
however that hon. gentleman might denounce
what he called the theoretical doctrines of
political economy, he would run the risk of
incurring his anger by refusing to subscribe
to his propositions. The hon. gentleman had
maintained, that the way to promote the
prosperity of the nation was to prevent
colonization. He had poetically described
colonization as a calamity; but what had
been the result of our experience of it in
all parts of the world? When we had carried
the English language to the furthest ends of
the world - when we had raised a population
of twelve millions under the government of
the United States - and when in Canada, where
there were only sixty thousand inhabitants,
when it was acquired at the peace of 1763 by
the English Crown, there were now upwards of
a million inhabitants, could it be said that
there was nothing to be gained by emigration
and colonization? His right hon. friend was
perfectly right - whatever might be the
mortality of one settlement in a particular
year, and under particular circumstances.
He trusted that parliament would suffer the
people of this country to locate themselves
in that fruitful part of our dominions in
North America. Nobody could suppose, that
men who were placed in a new country, and
obliged to adopt new habits would not have
some difficulties to surmount; but would
any body compare them with the miserable
peasantry of Ireland, having a scanty supply
of bad food, and being liable to all the
misery arising from the gradual suffering,
which was the only positive check to the
increase of population in old countries?
It would be doing a substantial benefit
to the state to adopt a measure that would
change such a system; and when the hon.
gentleman spoke of the true wealth of a
country consisting in keeping at home
those who consumed the productions of it,
did he forget that, by persons going
abroad and employing their skill and their
capital in matters in which they could
not be not so well employed at home, they
created a commerce which, but for them,
would never have existed, and which, in
the end, afforded employment to the
industry and capital of the people at
home? The hon. member seemed to think it
was impossible to create a population to
the full extent of the means of supporting
it. He must, therefore, think that China
was the country in the best condition in
the world; and that Ireland would be in
a better condition, if its population
was ten-fold what it now was. He did not
dispute the doctrine of the hon. member,
that the wealth of a state consisted in
its population, and that, considering no
other circumstance, the extent of Ireland
and its fertility were sufficient to
support a population of ten-fold its present
amount; but the hon. gentleman who was
the opponent of all theorists, beggared
all theorists, when he stated such a
proposition, without considering the
changes that must take place in every
respect in the country, before such a
population could be provided for. He would
not deny the truth of the abstract
proposition, that Ireland might support
a population as dense as that in Middlesex,
but it could only do so by finding capital,
and the means of giving them employment.
The hon. member had quoted Lord Bacon, who
was, undoubtedly, a very high authority;
but, in doing so, he ought to have recollected
that the great authority had stated in one
place that there was no abstract proposition
that was universally true. A recommendation
of that great man, made in another of his
works, would shew [show?] the propriety of that
observation. Lord Bacon said somewhere, in
speaking of the idleness which existed in
England and in Europe, that if a man had
nothing else to do, he should plant a tree.
Now, nothing could appear more wise or more
prudent than that, if a man were idle he
should plant a tree, which, in a country
like this, where timber was in great request,
would in time become of value. But let the
same man migrate to the wilds of America,
or Canada, and there the recommendation
would be, to cut down a tree; and this was
an illustration of the error of attempting
to apply theories at all times, and without
reference to the real state of the country.
- He would not pursue the subject of the
population, and of emigration further than
to say that the right hon. gentleman, who
had paid so much attention to it, and who
had furnished them with such important
statistic information, was entitled to
expect that they would receive the
proposition he was about to submit. In
that proposition he could not entirely
concur; because he could not go the full
length of believing, that the country
could be entirely relieved from its present
distress by emigration. He could not say
that it ought not to be one of the measures
adopted, in reference to the general
system with regard to the improvement of
the condition of the paupers of this
country; but for the state to undertake
to carry the pauper population from this
country to other lands, was a step
surrounded by difficulties greater than
any which his right hon. Friend seemed
to contemplate. Now, in his opinion, the
only wise and prudent system of emigration
was that in which those who emigrated
carried with them the means and the
capital necessary for their employment.
It was only the connection of property
with population that could render
emigration useful to this country, or
beneficial to the colonists. Such a
principle of emigration was the only
one which could strengthen the colonies,
benefit the empire from which they had
proceeded, and open new markets to the
mother country, by multiplying the
consumption of her products. A different
principle would only multiply the
amount of misery. - With respect to
the petition itself, he knew he had less
claim to the indulgence of the House
than any other member, as he had before
trespassed on their attention, and had
stated his sentiments on the subject.
The hon. member for Callington (Mr. Attwood)
had referred to the year 1822. On that
occasion he (Mr. T) had had a full
opportunity of stating his opinion upon
the question of the currency and had had
the good fortune to prevail on the House
to come to a determination not to change
the standard of the coin, either in weight,
in fineness, or in denomination. He had
now the singular satisfaction, arising
from the discussion this evening, and
from other circumstances, to find that
all men who had considered the subject
deprecated such a change, as inconsistent
with good faith and sound policy. All he
would now say was, that he had no reason
to alter the opinion he had then formed;
but he had great reason to be confirmed
in that conclusion, and to be more than
ever assured of the dangers which environed
any country, where the currency depended
on the faith and credit of the people.
The dangers and difficulties of a paper
currency had been under-rated; and all he
saw made him more than ever satisfied,
that it was the first duty of the
legislature - whatever might be the
difficulties in which the country was
placed - whatever might be the circumstances
of temptation to which they might be
exposed, and which might press on them -
never again to allow the currency to be
appreciated or uncertain - to do that
which would lead to great evils, of which
they could not see the end - which would
destroy the land-marks of property, and
the confidence and security of the people
- which would, perhaps, ultimately
confound all classes, at one time exciting,
and at another depressing industry; and
which would lead to great evils, of which
they could not see the end - which would
destroy the land-marks of property and
the confidence and security of the people
- which would, perhaps, ultimately confound
all classes, at one time exciting, and
another depressing industry; and which would,
ere long, produce a revolution in the state
and frame of society, that would endanger
the civil government of the country. It was
our good fortune to be now relieved from
this system; and the difficulties we at
present felt were struggling with related
not only to our property but affected, in
some measure, our civil and political
existence. When hon. gentlemen talked of
the difficulties of the country, he felt
satisfied, from what had happened since
1825, that if after that period we had
relaxed from the system then laid down -
if we had given any facilities to
speculation - the difficulties we now
felt would be greater than they were at
present: there would be, in fact, a
repetition of the panic of 1825, and we
should suffer another convulsion in the
property of the country, which perhaps,
it might not be able to endure. He
thought, therefore, that we could not
value too highly the declarations of
the government, that they would not
depart from the system that had then
been adopted. The hon. alderman who
had spoken on this discussion, had
indulged the House with some sage remarks
on the difference between the real and
the declared value, and the duties on
goods exported from this country in 1814
and in the present year. That difference
only shewed the effect of the great
cheapness of goods to be that of
multiplying their consumption. In 1814,
the declared value of the exports was
stated to be fifty millions, and the
official value thirty-six millions;
while at the present time the order was
inverted, and the declared value was
only thirty-six millions, and the
official value fifty-two millions.
That difference showed merely that
things were cheaper now than they were
then; and that fifty-two millions were
now consumed where thirty-six millions
had formerly been consumed. If there
was one circumstance more than another
that shewed the increased wealth of the
country, it was the prodigious increase
of consumption in all the articles of
the manufacture, or of the produce of
the soil, of this country. It was impossible
to say that a state was ruined, when the
consumption of the necessary articles of
life increased in such a manner. An
increased consumption was the best and
only means of relieving the stagnation
of trade. Low prices were the forerunners
of increased consumption; and it was our
good fortune that low prices existed,
since it increased the amount of the
consumption, not only in the home, but
in the foreign markets. This was the best
test that could be obtained of the state
of any country; for if the hon. alderman
could have proved, that with a diminished
exportation, according to the official
value, there had been a diminished
consumption, he should have been ready
to acknowledge that there was some
ground for alarm; for if with cheapness
there was not an increased consumption,
it would be a proof of poverty in the
people. But, in making his statement,
did the hon. alderman make no allowance
for the difference between the
circumstances of 1814 and the present
time? In 1814, the Exchange was thirty
per cent against us; now it was in our
favour, and such a difference must
produce a considerable effect. An
improvement in the cheapness of the
price at which we purchased the raw
material, and in the machinery with
which it was worked up into a
marketable fabric, would necessarily
lead to a diminution in the price of
the article. It was true, that if the
manufacturers could have bought the
raw materials, at that moment as they
could buy them now; and if, in addition
to this, they could now sell them as
they had sold them then - they would be
in a state of prosperity. Whether the consumers
would or would not be in the same situation,
he need hardly say. But, let him ask the hon.
gentleman what this country would have been
with respect to the world at large, if the
prices of our manufacturers had continued at
the same amount as in the time of war? We
were now the greatest manufacturers and
exporters in the world. Would that have been
our situation, if we had not been able to
compete with our foreign rivals in the markets
of the world? It was to the change of price
that we owed the advantages of our present
situation, in being able to sell our woollens
and cottons abroad - the price of which was
regulated by their price at home. Let the
legislature adopt as many fallacies as they
pleased, they could not raise the price of
articles at home; nor could they raise the
price abroad, if the foreign manufacturers
were able to undersell those of this
country. This was one of the causes of the
depression of the silk-trade; in which the
amount of the price prevented the existence
of a home market, and did not permit us to
become exporters. One of the objects of the
legislature ought to be to remove all the
duties from the raw material, and all the
obstacles that former legislatures had
thrown in the way of the commerce of the
country. They should endeavour to give to
commerce and to industry every possible
facility, and at the same time to
circumscribe the facilities for
tampering with the credit of the country.
If the system now existing with regard to
the currency with regard to the currency
was preserved, in this country,
notwithstanding the difficulties under
which she laboured, would be found to be
in a more prosperous state, than in any
period since the war. - He agreed with the
hon. member, that there was no such thing
as over-production or over-trading, in
the sense in which they were generally
used; but, wherever there were improved
machinery, great capital, and considerable
skill, there would often be for a short
time, a supply that would exceed the
demand; but that difficulty must find
its remedy, in an increased demand and
consumption. There were persons who
supposed that cotton was at its minimum
price eighteen months ago, and who, in
consequence of speculating in it, were
now nearly ruined; but that circumstance
did not shew the state of the country at
large to be one of distress, and he was
persuaded that all that parliament had
to do was, to avoid the quackery of
pretending to afford a remedy which was
beyond their power. He was as anxious as
any man that this country should carry on
all her immense affairs with as small a
quantity of metallic currency as was
consistent with the safety of the state.
He would have as many bills of exchange,
and as many book debts as the traders
might find requisite, as much as possible
in the dealings between man and man,
without the intervention of coin or
currency - all that was a wise and
salutary substitute; but in this, which
was connected with the public credit,
we ought to guard against a system which,
if pursued, must end in depreciation of
that currency which it was intended to
improve, and which depreciation would
go on increasing until it found its
remedy in some of those frightful checks
such as had occurred in 1825. He had read
in some author a metaphor very much to
the purpose on this subject, and with
that he should conclude. It was simple,
but of its truth there could be no
doubt. The author observed, "that
fictitious credit", like a sky-rocket,
rose in flames, and with a brilliancy
that surprised us; but its greatest
brightness was followed by immediate
darkness the deeper for the contrast
with what went before it; and the
consequences of a false credit, like
the stick of the rocket might fall,
with destructive force, on the head
of him who had thrown him up".
Mr. Cripps contended, that the country
was in any thing but a prosperous
state. He was not an advocate for an
entire paper currency, but he thought
that we might have an admixture of that
and gold; he meant, that the one-pound
notes might have been continued with
advantage along with gold; but he would
have their issue limited.
Mr. Secretary Peel said, that in consequence
of the course of policy which he had
deemed it his duty to pursue in the present
session, a series of unfounded calumnies
had been levelled at him, which, however,
he had despised too much to condescend to
notice. But there was one which, as it
affected on his public and official
character, he would, with the permission
of the House, allude to. The report to
which he alluded was, that he had used his
influence as Secretary of State to procure
an enormous grant of land for a relative
of his. In consequence of seeing this
report in the public papers, he had
requested his right hon. Friend to move
for the production of certain papers
calculated to explain the whole matter.
Those papers had in consequence been
produced, and were now printed: he trusted,
however, that the House would excuse him
again for alluding to the subject. He
hoped that the consequence of those papers
being printed, would have been, that some
member would have asked him questions on
the subject; but though this was not the
case, he had received a communication
which made him think, that some one out
of doors had been imposed upon by the
calumny, though no member of that House,
had been so deceived. He begged, in the
first place, to state most distinctly
that he had procured no grant of land
for any brother of his. A Gentleman,
whose name was the same as his own, and
who was his second cousin, had had a
grant made him, by his right hon. Friend;
but in that grant he begged to state to
the House, upon his word of honour, as
a Gentleman, he had had no participation
whatever. Indeed, he had so many cousins,
and second cousins, that it was not very
likely that he should use his influence
in procuring large grants in their favour.
But with respect to this case, the fact
simply was that some time since, this
gentleman informed him that it was his
intention to go out to New South Wales as
a settler. This was in the month of June,
1828. In consequence of this communication
he wrote a letter to his right hon. Friend
to the effect, that a relation of his, of
the name of Thomas Peel, who was possessed
of ample means and good character, proposed
going out to the colony as a settler, and
that he should be obliged to his right hon.
Friend to give his cousin any facilities
that he consistently could. He certainly
did not think that this letter was any undue
exercise of his influence. All that he had
done on understanding that his cousin
purposed to go to New South Wales as a
Settler was, to ask his right hon. Friend
to give him any facility that he consistently
could. With respect to the settlement on the
Swan River, he was ashamed to say, that he
had heard nor knew of it, until he received
a letter from his cousin, announcing to him,
that he had abandoned the idea of going to
New South Wales; and that from the circumstance
of Mr. Twiss informing him, that government
would be disposed to afford assistance to any
settlers going to the Swan River, he and
three other gentlemen had been induced to send
in a proposal to that effect.
He had subsequently inquired of his right
hon. Friend on this point, and understood
from him, that no arrangement had been made
in consequence of that proposal, and from
the particulars which his right hon. Friend
had afforded him, he had stated his conviction
that he had done perfectly right in declining
the proposal: in fact, the plan proposed
was upon so large a scale, that his right
hon. Friend had not thought it right to
enter into any such arrangement, until a
full report was received from Captain Sterling,
respecting the capabilities of the settlement;
and in consequence, his cousin had been
recommended to go there as an individual
settler. Whether the grant to him had been
right or wrong, he would not say: all that
he had to do was to assure the House, on the
honour of a Gentleman, that he had never made
any application, either directly or indirectly,
to his right hon. friend, further than what he
had already stated; and that when the grant was
made, it never had even been communicated to
him. With respect to the other calumnies which
had been promulgated against him, they rather
went to private matters, and he had therefore,
not condescended to notice them; but as this one
had reference to the public department in which
he officiated, he had thought it so far a public
concern, as to ask the attention of the House,
while he trespassed on it to disclaim any
participation in the grant that had been made
[hear, hear].
Sir G. Murray said, that the House would
probably think, after the statement of his right
hon. friend, that it would be unnecessary for
him to address them. He was satisfied the House
knew his right hon. friend to be incapable of
proposing anything that would come under the
designation of what was vulgarly called a job;
and if the House knew his character as well as
they did that of his right hon. friend, they
would also feel that, even supposing his right
hon. friend could have proposed such a thing,
he never would have acceded to it. The House
was in the possession of some of the particulars
of the grant: to those might be added, that the
proposal made by Mr. Thomas Peel and his friends
went to the taking out of ten thousand persons
to the Swan River. In consequence of which the
colonial department had felt that this would
be risking too much in the present early state
of the settlement. The parties had been advised
to arrange their proposal on a less extensive
scale. Three of the gentlemen had, in consequence,
retired; but Mr. Thomas Peel still adhered to the
scheme. This, however, was merely accidental; and
it might just as well have happened, that
Mr. McQueen or any of the other gentlemen had
remained and Mr. Thomas Peel retired. After this
time all the proceedings went on in the colonial
office without his right hon. friend having any
acquaintance with them. He did not complain of
what had appeared in the public papers; for as
they were open to everyone, they must necessarily
often be made the channel of calumnies and
misstatements, as well as of useful information;
and as this was well known to be the case, he
had not thought it necessary to insert in them
any contradiction of the statement alluded to.
Mr. Brougham said, he believed he should be
but speaking the sense of the whole House when
he said, that he had heard for the first
time in his life the right hon. gentleman
make a speech that was wholly unnecessary
[hear, hear]. That it would have the effect
out of doors of silencing those who had taken
up the subject, was more than he could answer
for; but this he would venture to pronounce,
that if this calumny produced no effect abroad,
so it produced no effect in that House, and
might, therefore, be treated with the contempt
it deserved, though, perhaps, as the matter
had some public reference, the right hon.
gentleman had pursued the safer course in
thus affording it an unequivocal denial
[hear, hear]. - The hon. and learned
gentleman then proceeded to reply to the
observations that had been made on the
petition which he had presented. Upon the
subject of the currency, which had engrossed
so much of the attention of the House
during the discussion, he would merely say,
at the time when a noble lord, now a
member of the other house (Radnor), brought
the question of an equitable adjustment
under consideration in the years 1819 and
1822, he (Mr. B) thought it did not receive
all the attention which it deserved. The
House decided then against the proposal of
an adjustment - the time being of all others
the best fitted for such an attempt,
because the currency had not been raised
from its state of depreciation. If,
therefore, they were of opinion that an
adjustment should not take place then,
how much less was it fit that it should
take place now, when those great changes
had been affected to which hon. members
alluded. That adjustment was now placed
beyond their power; and all he had to
hope was, that no possible state of things
would ever induce the legislature again
to tamper with the currency.
Mr. A. Baring would merely say, in answer to
the last observation of the hon. and learned
member, that the government of this country
could not support the expense of two
campaigns in any war in which they might
have the misfortune to be engaged, without
being driven to that tampering which the
hon. member condemned.
Mr. Brougham thought, that the observations
just made by the hon. member only showed
the necessity for this country to preserve
herself in peace.
The petition was ordered to lie on the
table.
Mr. Wilmot Horton then said, that after
what had passed, he should not offer any
further observations on his resolutions.
He then moved, "That a proportion of the
able bodied population of the United Kingdom,
who are dependent upon the wages of labour
for their support, are now out of employment,
and at the same time a larger proportion
are receiving a rate of wages which is not
adequate to that degree of support which it
would be desirable for the public interest
that they should receive:
"That an expensive and burthensome
contribution is simultaneously made for the
support of the poor in the United Kingdom
in various direct and indirect modes:
"That this House is of opinion, that, when
the labouring population is relatively
redundant, that is, when the supply of
labour is more than in proportion to the
funds applicable for its profitable
employment, no improvement whatever can
take place in the condition of any
particular class, until the proportions
of demand and supply of labour are so
far restored in that class as to prevent
the necessity of any such labourers
exchanging their labour for wages only
sufficient to secure to them the
minimum of subsistence; and that no
general improvement can take place until
those proportions are still further
restored, so as to furnish able bodied
labourers the means of exchanging their
labour for wages sufficient for their
adequate maintenance:
"That this improvement can only take
place, either by the increase of the
funds for the employment of labour or by
the diminution of the supply of labour,
or by the compound operation of those two
causes:
"That is expedient that such measures
should be adopted in the next session of
Parliament as may furnish the most safe
and effectual means of producing the
desired improvement, by a judicious
application of both those principles,
and at the same time under conditions
which will prevent the probability of
recurrence of similar evils, and also
effect a material saving of the national
income, instead of producing an increased
charge thereon".
Whereupon the previous question
"That the question be now put," was
moved, and negatived.
