THIRD
REPORT
FROM THE
SELECT COMMITTEE
APPOINTED TO INQUIRE INTO
THE NATURE, CHARACTER, EXTENT AND TENDENCY
OF
ORANGE LODDGES, ASSOCIATIONS
OR SOCIETIES IN IRELAND;
WITH THE
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE,
APPENDIX AND INDEX.
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Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed,
6 August 1835.
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE
Lieutenant Colonel William Blacker, 3 August 1835
... 9351. Are you aware of the existence of Orangeism in Upper
Canada? -I have heard a good deal of conversation about it.
9352. What effect do you conceive it is likely to produce?
-From communications that I have heard of, I have great reason
to believe that the preservation of Lower Canada to Britain may
very shortly depend upon the Orangeism of Upper Canada; Upper
Canada is densely peopled from the north of Ireland; I believe I
may say eight-tenths of its population literally have gone from
the province of Ulster; vast numbers of them from the county of
Fermanagh; I cannot of course be expected to speak of my own
knowledge of things at that distance, but I have heard
communications, stating that they were watching with an anxious
eye the proceedings of the Government of England towards the
Protestants of Ireland, to see what party they would take as to
assisting England in the preservation of Lower Canada, and much
would depend upon the conduct of Government in that respect.
9353. Who are these parties whom you describe to have held this
language; were they the Orangemen in Canada? - Generally
speaking; whether they are actually in lodges or not, I cannot
say; but I believe they all have their lodges there; I
understand there have been letters received to that effect in my
part of the country.
9354. Can you state the name of any body who wrote? I understand
there was a man of the name of Twining got such a letter.
9355. Do you mean to say, that the Orangemen in Upper Canada
have communicated with Ireland, stating that they are watching
attentively the conduct of the English Government towards the
Protestants of Ireland, for the purpose of directing them in the
part which they should take, as to the defence of the province,
in the approaching struggle in Canada? - Yes, I have heard it
spoken of, both in my own county and in Belfast.
9356. Then, in point of fact, they were disposed to make their
allegiance to the British Government in Canada depend upon the
conduct of the Government to the Protestants in Ireland?
- I do not say any thing about their allegiance; but that the
conduct of the Government here would a good deal determine their
conduct.
9357. What is the struggle to which you alluded in Canada?
- The strong disposition that is stated to prevail among the
French party, the anti-British party, in Lower Canada, to
separate that county from Great Britain, and to throw off the
British yoke.
9358. Do you mean to intimate, that their devotion to the
British Crown, and the measure of their exertions, would in some
degree be regulated by whether the British Government take part
with the adversaries of Protestantism in Ireland or not?
-Yes, the communication was to that effect; that it depended a
good deal upon the conduct of the British Government towards the
Protestants and the Protestant institutions in Ireland; of
course the whole of this was hearsay.
9359. You have no doubt that such communication did come from
many persons to their friends in Belfast and in the north of
Ireland? -I have no doubt upon the subject, from the way in
which I heard it talked of generally.
9360. From the general character of the persons from whom you
have heard it, do you believe it to be a fact? -I believe there
is a great deal of foundation for it.
9361. Did you ever hear that the course of policy of late years
pursued by the British Government has caused many Protestants to
emigrate from Ireland in disgust? -I have heard that it has.
9362. Do you know it of your own knowledge? -I do not Know it of
my own knowledge; I have never conversed with any person under
those circumstances.
9363. Have you any doubt of its being a fact? -I have not, from
what I have heard.
9364. A great many thousand Protestants have emigrated within
the last four or five years from Ireland? - A great many; I have
had a good opportunity of seeing the extent to which emigration
was carried, from the circumstance of my residing immediately
adjoining one of the great passes from the west of Ulster to the
great emigrating port of Belfast, which is the village of
Portadown, adjoining me, and have seen the stream of emigration
flowing along through that village for many years.
9365. Do not Roman Catholics emigrate as well as Protestants? -
Not in the same proportion, I think.
9366. What are the particular effects produced by the policy of
this Government towards the Protestants that have induced them
to emigrate; are the Protestants in the north of Ireland less
secure in their lives and property than they were; and if so, is
that diminution of security in consequence of the change of the
policy of Government? -I do not think we actually are less
secure in our lives and properties; for, God be praised, we have
hearts and hands to defend them, and no fear upon the subject;
but there are a vast number of persons who apprehend that they
are in danger; I am not one of the number who feel that there is
that danger myself, but I know that has gone to a great extent
among other people.
9367. But you trust rather to your own hearts and hands than to
the protection of the Government? -If it came to necessity we
would act, no matter what the opinion of the Government was; and
I should think we should be justified in doing so; we would act
as other forefathers did.
9368. In some parts of Scotland it is found that many
respectable persons have emigrated, with a view to better their
codition; is not it possible and even probable that the same
motive which has induced respectable persons from the north of
Ireland?
- No doubt there are a great many people emigrate, for the
purpose of bettering their condition; I do not mean to say that
the great bulk have gone from the fear that has been spoken of;
I believe that great numbers have gone, like the swarming of a
hive, because the population was getting too numerous.
9369. To better their condition? - Yes.
9370. As those brave men of whom you have spoken, Orangemen,
with hearts and hands to defend themselves, in the north of
Ireland, would be incapable of being influenced by fear, must it
not have been solely to better their condition?
- A great many went to better their condition; but there is no
doubt that many, not so much from my part of the world as from
others, such as the county of Limerick, have gone from those
motives; I have heard that there were a set of people called
Palatines; but these are matters on which I can give no accurate
information.
9371. Is it your opinion, from all the opportunities you have
had of coming to a knowledge of the fact that the Orange
institution, in a general point of view, has contributed and is
calculated to contribute to the peace of the coutry, or
otherwise?
- In my opinion it has materially contributed to the peace of
the country rather than otherwise.
9372. Do not you conceive that the knowledge that there is a
Protestant Association to that extent in existence, has a
tendency to repress a spirit of insurrection, and might at some
future period have a tendency to repress a forcible attempt at
the separation of the two countries? - I have no doubt of it.
9373. If the conduct of the Government at home towards the
Protestants in Ireland was not acceptable to the Orangemen in
Canada, might not that circumstance be detrimental to the peace
of that province? - That is really matter in which I can form no
opinion upon the subject....
... 9494. There is an entry upon the 17th of November 1831,
"Your committee have received from America the most cheering
accounts, and the lodges now sitting there under your warrants
emulate each other in evincing their gratitude for the interest
taken by you in their welfare; "did you consider that those
lodges were in direct connexion with the Irish Orange system?
- No, there is a separate Orange institution in the Canadas, as
much separated from the Orange institution in Ireland as the
Orange institution of Great Britain is; many masters of Orange
Lodges, on emigrating from the country, were in the habit of
taking their Orange warrants with them, and establishing Orange
Lodges there; they became connected with the institution in
Canada, with which we have no official communications; and it
was merely the private members of those bodies writing to the
grand lodge of Ireland, stating their own personal prosperity,
and that of the principles of the society.
9495. When a lodge is established then in America, is it
necessary that the warrant should be signed by the grand master
in England or Ireland? - They have no direct connexion with the
grand lodge in Ireland, and I believe not at all with the grand
lodge of England; some time ago I saw by a newspaper report that
they had established a grand lodge of their own in America, and
appointed a person of the name of Gowan, who had been an Irish
Orangeman, as their deputy grand master, and they applied to the
Duke of Cumberland to become their grand master, but he
communicated with the grand lodge of Ireland upon the subject,
and by them he was recommended not to have any thing to do with
it, as Mr. Gowan had been expelled from the institution of
Ireland.
9496. You stated that the Orange Society in Canada is no more
connected with the Orange Society in Ireland than the Orange
Society in Ireland is connected with the Orange Society in
England; is not the Duke of Cumberland the imperial grand
master, being the grand master both of the Orange Society of
England and the Orange Society of Ireland? - He is the common
head of two district societies holding similar principles, but
totally different in the details of their management and
discipline.
9497. And the only reason why he did not become grand master of
the lodges in Canada was, that the deputy grand master was a man
of bad character? - That was the reason suggested by the grand
lodge of Ireland....
... 9501. The relation between the Orange Lodges in Canada and
the Orange Lodges in Ireland is the same as the relation which
exists between the Orange Lodges in England and the Orange
Lodges in Ireland? -The only relation is community of principle;
there is no direct or constant communication, nor an assumption
of authority upon either side over the other.
9502. What is the meaning of these words in the resolution, "the
lodges now sitting there under your warrants, emulate each other
in evincing their gratitude for the interest taken by you in
their welfare;" how do you explain that? - The masters of lodges
in Ireland on emigrating, were in the habit of taking the
warrants with them, and there, under that authority, forming
lodges; but the connexion ceases between that lodge and the
Orange institution of Ireland as soon as they are out of the
kingdom, and the same number is constantly given to the county
where the warrants have been taken from.
9503. When a warrant is taken out from Ireland to America, does
that warrant cease as soon as that party gets out to America,
and is a new warrant taken out for the same number?
- Constantly.
9504. So that the numbers taken are totally unconnected with the
Orange institution in Ireland? -The one taken to America is
considered dormant as far as Ireland is concerned.
9505. But the authority under which they are first formed in
America is the warrant issued for the grand lodge in Ireland?
- It will be perceived from the form of the warrants, that it
only authorizes the person holding it to form the lodge within a
certain county and district; if the warrant is taken to America,
there is no authority emanating from the grand lodge in Ireland.
9506. How do you explain this, "the lodges now sitting there
under your warrants?" -The warrants had been taken out by
individual masters who had them in their possession, considering
that they were an authority for forming lodges, and they have
written over to Ireland in those words, stating these facts.
9507. Are not those the only warrants under which those lodges
in America hold their sittings? -We have no means of knowing
that.
9508. It is stated here, "the lodges sitting under your
warrants," how do you explain that expression? - That is an
expression used by the American lodges to the Irish grand lodge,
not the opinion of the Irish grand lodge.
9509. It is a notion entertained by the Americans themselves? -
Yes.
9510. Although that notion is not entertained by the grand
lodge? - Yes.
9511. So that it is a mistaken notion of the power under which
they sit in America? - It is.
9512. But have they any other power than that which is derived
from the grand lodge in Ireland? - They have a grand lodge in
America who issue warrants to their own members....
