Emigration

     HOUSE OF COMMONS
      Tuesday, March 4.

EMIGRATION.]  Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that he had given notice of three
motions for that evening.  The first was
for a copy of the report laid before the
colonial department by lieut. colonel Cockburn
on the subject of Emigration; together
with the instructions received from that
department on the 26th of January, 1827;
the second was, for leave to bring
in a bill to revive and amend an act for
regulating vessels carrying passengers to
foreign parts: the last was for leave to
bring in a bill to enable parishes in England,
under given regulations, and for a
limited period, to mortgage their poor-rates
for the purpose of assisting voluntary
Emigration.  The last of these motions
he would postpone to the 13th of March.
As to the second, he had brought it forward
at the desire of the colonial department;
but as he understood that there was an
intention to oppose it, he would
postpone it to a further day, when a minister
of the Crown might be present to
take a part in the discussion.  The sole
subject, therefore, to which he should now
call the attention of the House was that
of Emigration from the United Kingdom;
having reference to the reports of the two
committees; the one in 1826, the other
in 1827: which committees had examined
an infinite number of individuals; and had
made very copious reports, accompanied
by suggestions of the course which in their
opinion it was advisable to adopt.  In
offering his sentiments to the House upon
this occasion, he begged it to be most
distinctly understood, that he suggested
nothing by authority of government, nor did
he mean at present to propose any substantive
measure.  What he wished was,
to call the attention of the House generally,
to a subject which he was convinced
was of the greatest national importance;
although the thinness of the House proved
to demonstrate, that such was not the
opinion entertained of it by the House at
large.  Still, however, he would not shrink
from what he felt to be his duty.  Whatever
apathy might exist with respect to
the question, at the present moment, sure
he was that the day would come when the
subject itself would be deemed of vital
consequence.  He would now, endeavour
to place in as clear a light as he could, the
various circumstances of the case; of the
general indisposition to attend to which he
should be wanting to his public duty if he
did not complain.  He would refer to the
history of Emigration, and to the experiments
that had been made with reference
to it.  In the year 1823, in consequence
of the state of the South of Ireland, and
of the great inconvenience resulting from
the superabundant population in the
neighbourhood of Cork, government decided
upon sending out, by way of experiment,
a certain number of individuals, under the
superintendance [superintendence?] of Mr.
Robinson, a Canadian gentleman, who went to Ireland
for the purpose of conducting the individuals
in question to the place of their
destination.  It was never, for a moment,
pretended, that the expatriation of this
small number of persons could be
expected, in the slightest degree, to alleviate
the evil to which he had alluded; but it
was thought necessary to make an experiment
for the purpose of ascertaining how
far, in case the exigency should increase,
the plan of Emigration could be carried
into effect.  In the year 1823, a body,
consisting of two thousand emigrants,
were sent out from the South of Ireland,
under the superintendence of Mr. Robinson,
and located in the North American
Colonies, and the plan, he was
happy to say, had entirely succeeded.
Many had thought the scheme impolitic
in principle, and likely to entail great
sufferings upon the settlers, without
producing any benefit to this country; but,
as far as the first part of the doubts upon
the subject reached, the result had proved
that they were totally unfounded.  These
settlers had been as proserous as those
who had promoted the Emigration had
anticipated.  But when the money was to
be voted, the House interfered, and said
very naturally, that it was desirable that
a committee should be appointed to investigate
the whole subject, and that it was
inconvenient that the public money should
be voted without the House seeing it was
clearly advantageous, and being convinced
that some substantive good would arise
from the proceeding.  A committee was
appointed in 1826, and another subsequently
sat in 1827; and some of the
points most essential to the right
understanding and conducting of the subject of
Emigration have been so well established
on the authority of that committee, that
they appeared settled beyond dispute.  It
was established by the labours of this
committee, that there was a redundant
population in this country.  The committee
of 1827 supported the doctrine of
the committee appointed in 1826; which
was, that there existed a redundancy of
able-bodied and active labourers, with
their families, for whose labours there
was no effective demand in either Ireland,
Scotland or England.  The effect
of this redundancy was, to reduce the
wages of the labourer much below the
proper level; and the consequence was
destitution and misery amongst great
masses of the poor.  This doctrine of the
committee led to another principle, that
the labourers for whose labours no real
demand existed consumed more than they
produced, and consequently added nothing
to the general production of the
community, but decreased the national wealth.
If it was well known to be the opinion of
the persons best informed upon this subject
that there were labourers for whose
labour no demand existed, the House must
admit the main proposition, that such labourers
were supported by the country, and
it could not grudge any rational effort to
effect their removal.  He should also mention,
that the committee never in any way
recommended any but voluntary emigration;
it set its face against all ideas of
emigration by compulsion.  But the
House must consider, that if the distress
and misery among the people were such as
the evidence stated, very little persuasion,
much less compulsion, would be necessary
to induce the people to avail themselves of
any favourable opportunity of bettering
their condition.  They would be to
accept of any terms offered to them for
removing from scenes of destitution at home,
to those of comparative comfort in the
colonies. - He was justified in stating, that
it was the opinion of the committee, that
no issue of money should be made for the
purpose of removing emigrants, until plans
should be suggested to prevent the filling
up of the vacuum produced by emigration.
Unless measures were taken upon principle
and system to prevent the recurrence
of a redundant population, all plans and
efforts to relieve the labouring classes by
emigration would be frustrated.  From
1822 to the present time, his attention
had been turned to this subject, not only
privately, but with the advantages which
his official station afforded him; and
although many of the opinions he had first
entertained had been confirmed by further
investigation and experience, he was willing
to admit, that he might have adopted
erroneous opinions, had they not been
corrected by the labours of the committee in
which he had assisted; and if the House
were not disposed to allow the committee
merit for what they had done, the country
was disposed to admit that they had
furnished some valuable information, and had
afforded new views, with reference to the
condition of the country.  He must consider
it as admitted beyond the possibility
of denial, that the expenses incurred
with reference to emigration in 1823 and
1825 (putting out of the question whether
the expenses were judicious or not, as to
the general measure) had answered all the
proposed objects and purposes, as far as
concerned the condition of the parties
removed.  But he had heard many gross
misrepresentations of the subject in
Ireland, and the members of the committee
had been characterized as indifferent to
human suffering, and influenced by sinister
motives; in short, as wholesale murderers.
These representations were groundless and
false.  The returns and information received
from North America did not present
a single instance of an emigrant
whose happiness had not been increased-
whose condition had not been greatly
improved- by his removal from Europe.
The majority removed in 1823 and 1825
had been taken from that collision- that
ruinous competition for inferior lands-
which was incidental to a redundant
population, and transported to the most fertile
lands of the colonies- lands of the primeval
fertility, where they had only to cut down
the trees and scratch the surface, in order
to produce the most abundant crops.
How immense the advantage of removing
the redundant and suffering population
from Europe to America- of converting
them from a distressed tenantry into
proprietors of rich lands, competent to
supply all their wants, and to establish their
immediate descendants beyond the chance
of suffering what it is the lot of the great
body of the poor at home to suffer!  It
had been the opinion of every man, that
it would be highly to the benefit of
individuals, and of the community, to send off
the redundant population to North America,
but for the expenses of the voyage
to Lower Canada: the country not being
thought in a condition to incur the
expenses of this voyage, or to vote supplies
of public money on a demand of charity,
it was not thought justifiable to incur this
expense in any extended degree.  But the
committee appointed in 1827 avoided this
difficulty, and had proved that emigration,
whilst it afforded an immmediate and perpetual
benefit to this country, could be
carried on upon an extended scale, without
any permanent expense, but only upon
advance of th public money to the
emigrants, to be lent upon a security, and
under circumstances and regulations which
would insure its repayment to the State.-
The committee had had an opportunity of
examining eleven competent witnesses
upon the subject, and they had afforded
the most satisfactory evidence to prove
this position.  He ventured to assert, without
the fear of any contradiction, that of
these eleven witnesses there was not one
whose credit could be impeached; they
were men having ample means of possessing
the most correct information upon the
subject, and had no possible motive for not
giving an honest and conscientious opinion.
This was a valuable, a conclusive body of
evidence, the weight of which could not
possibly be resisted.  The question had
been put by the committee to these
witnesses, if it were proper or feasible
to hold out to the country a prospect that
emigration could be effected without any
ultimate expense to the public, and with a
hope of the return of the money advanced to the
emigrants?  It was added, that no proposition
could be more dangerous if there
were not a sure ground on which to calculate
such a result, as a proof that emigration
could be carried on to any extent without
incurring any expense to the State.
With reference to this part of the subject
it was, that certain questions were put to
the witnesses by the committee, and they
were so shaped as to include all points of
importance with reference to the question
of emigration.  They were distinctly
asked, what was the expense necessary
to provide for the location of a family,
consisting of a man, a woman, and three
children, in the North American colonies?
A comparison of the position of the parties,
and a statement of details were given;
and the result was, that in the opinion of
the witnesses, 50l. sterling, or 66l. currency
was enough to pay all the expenses
of such an emigrant family, and to locate
and establish them, so that they could go
on afterwards securely - on their own
resources, and commence a repayment on
this advance of money in five years.  Of
these 66l. currency, forty were to be
expended in provisions; as it would be
necessary that such a family, so situated,
should be supplied with rations for fifteen
months, so as to put them out of all chance
of want, and prevent any embarrassments
which migh prevent their using their full
exertions to avail themselves of the advantages
set before them.  In this case,
they could avail themselves of their first
crop.- The next question was as to the
concurrence of the witnesses in this
estimate.  Some persons thought the estimate
too low.  Not a family went out to the
colony without calling another after them
- not a settler of 1823 or 1825 had been
located sufficiently long to see his real
situation and prospects, wihtout writing to
his friends in Europe to describe his good
fortune in having emigrated, and to
implore his friends to follow his example;
to come out to the means of enjoying
plenty, and with a certainty of avoiding
want. - The next question put by the
committee to the witnesses was, whether they
considered that the settlers, if they did
not pay interest for seven years, would
have any difficulty to pay 4l. per annum
in money or in kind; and whether they
would have power to pay off the principal
at any time?  The answers of the
witnesses were uniform and concurrent, as to
the fact of the emigrants being able to pay
the sums advanced to them.  They were
asked, whether this would not be facilitated
if it were clearly explained to the emigrants
and settlers, that it was exacted from them
not as a rent of land, but as a payment of
interest of money lent to them at their
own request, advanced in kind, and which
they might repay in kind.  The unanimous
answer of the witnesses was in the
affirmative.  But the facts established by
this testimony had been otherwise confirmed,
and in a very remarkable manner.
In 1827, his majesty's government had
sent out colonel Cockburn to America;
a gentleman perfectly well qualified to
collect every species of information upon
the subject.  He was sent out in order to
survey and report upon the North American
colonies, with reference to their respective
aptitude to receive emigrants from the
mother country, and he was directed to
ascertain if the majority of the settlers
would be able to pay back the money advanced
to them, for the purpose of enabling
them to locate.  Colonel Cockburn
had presented an able report upon the
subject, and it was for this report that he
was now about to move; for he was
convinced that members would derive from
it information which would enable them
to form clear and precise views upon the
subject.  Colonel Cockburn had passed
through a great part of the country which
had been lately located, and which had
consequently afforded him an opportunity
of acquiring the most accurate information
as to the wants, the progress, the
hopes, the exertions, and the capabilities
of the settlers.  He had conversed with
them on the spot, and had himself witnessed
their condition.  To his questions
relative to the abilities of the settlers to
repay the money advanced to them by
government for their location, the answers
never varied.  They all said, that if they
had good land, at the expiration of five
years they would be able to repay at the
rate of five pounds a year, provided that
government would receive the repayment
in produce.  With respect to their ability
to make the payment in money, they were
less confident; and they thought that
such a mode of re-payment would be
necessarily uncertain, and attended with
difficulties.  Colonel Cockburn visited the
settlers that had been located by Mr.
Robinson- the Lanark settlers; and the
military settlers that had been sent out
ten years ago, under circumstances
different from those of other emigrants.  These
military settlers consisted of discharged
soldiers, who were transported to the
colonies, and provided for, on the condition
of each individual giving up his
pension.  The Lanark settlers were
provided for, upon a plan of their repaying
back the sums advanced, by annual
installments, to be completed in ten years.
Colonel Cockburn had regretted that he
had not taken down the precise words of
the emigrants; and that he could
consequently only give a report of the general
impressions made upon his mind by what
they said.  Colonel Cockburn had particularly
visited Perth, and Bathurst, and
a third district.  There were twelve
statements contained in the report.  In one
of these statements, Colonel Cockburn relates,
that in the military settlement the discharged
soldiers told them that when they came
into the country there was scarcely one of
them that possessed a penny; but that in
the first year they had received from government
enough to make their families
comfortable, and that in five years they
had each a good house and a stock of
cattle.  One showed four oxen, several
cows, and a good live stock, for which he
said he would not take 150l., and in nine
years he expected to increase his stock to
such an extent as to be worth at least 300l.
sterling.  Other witnesses had given precisely
similar accounts of other settlements.
The emigrants in every settlement had
said, that at the end of five years they
should be able to repay their advances,
not in money but in kind.  The settlers
when once established were in a
condition to employ other labourers, and they
would soon create a market for the
manufacturers of this country, and thus be
productive of national wealth in both
hemispheres.  Colonel Cockburn had made his
inquiries with an intelligence and in a
spirit which reflected upon him great
honour.  If there were those who doubted
the evidence of the colonial witnesses, of
colonel Cockburn and colonel Talbot,- he
would refer them to the evidence contained
in letters written from settlers to their
friends, some of which he had selected
from many hundreds.  This particular
evidence was most likely to produce an
effect on the minds of those who were
sceptical; and, above all, it was the sort of
evidence best calculated to make an
impression on the minds of those who would be
tempted to emigrate, if they could be
satisfied that it would be advantageous to
them.  One passage from a letter he would
read to the House as being very characteristic.
The writer said to his friends in
Ireland-" Here we are, without any
consideration of landlord or proctor, and with
plenty of good eating and drinking.  I am
constantly in trouble of mind from not
having you and mother with me here.
I am sure you will say it was the
happiest day of your life if you come."  The
writer then proceeded to mention some
half dozen persons, whom he wished to
come out to him, and concluded as follows:
-"Likewise bring my brother-in-law,
Cornelius Lane, with you, and Judy Lane,
and by all means don't leave Mary and
Ellen behind.  Come to the land of plenty,
there is no such thing as want here."  Such
letters as that were the best argument that
could be advanced to disprove Mr. O'Connel's
assertion, that emigration from Ireland
was a delusion.  So long as letters of
that description were written by emigrants,
so long would there be a disposition on the
part of their friends to proceed to join
them.  He would now entreat the attention
of the House to a few observations on
the state of Ireland.  Whither, he asked,
would the system of perpetual division of
property in Ireland lead, if it did not
receive some positive check?  Every where
[Everywhere?] it was stated, that the irruption
of paupers from Ireland was attended with the
worst consequences to our own population.  He
had never heard any plausible remedy
suggested for this evil, unless it was to get
rid of the sub-letting system.  It was in evidence
before the committee, that many
landlords were restrained from removing
their tenants only from the apprehension
that they would spread themselves over
the provinces of Ireland, and commit every
possible act of rapine and disorder.  Could
any man doubt that it would be for the
interest of Ireland, if these persons could
avail themselves of emigration?  Could
any man doubt that, under such  circumstances,
it was the interest of parliament to
supply facilities for emigration?  Of what
possible advantage could the existence of
those persons be in this country, and
of what benefit might not their exertions
be in the colonies?  He was satisfied
that the subject only required to be calmly
considered, and well understood, for the
country and parliament to be satisfied that
the question of affording facilities to
emigration was one which deserved the most
serious attention.  Further, he was convinced
that no practical mode of remedying
the evil which was allowed to exist
could be devised, that would be so cheap.
Could it be doubted that evil resulted in
Ireland from persons pressing forward to
become possessors of land?  Those persons
did not bid for land for the purpose of
employing their stock or capital upon it,
but from a desire to obtain the means of
avoiding that starvation which they might
be subjected to, if they did not obtain
possession of the land.  That competition,
however, had a natural tendency to produce
high rents.  That must have been
the view which the Irish gentlemen took
of the question; but what was the advantage
of having nominal high rents, if
they were not paid?  Under that system,
Ireland was fast advancing to a state of
Agrarian law, which tended to bring the
landed proprietor down to a level with
his pauper tenant.  Nothing was so effectual
as emigration for discouraging the system.
Nothing was so common as for the people to
say, "Let capital flow into Ireland, and all
will be well."  What was the meaning of
that statement?  Manufacturing capital
would not flow into Ireland, because there
was nothing to invite it.  Manufacturing
capital would go where there was the
greatest market for home consumption,
where there was the greatest debouchement.
Moreover, it would fix itself in a coal
country, on account of the machinery which
it employed.  Capital would not go to Ireland
for cheap labour, when the steam engine
brought that labour within the reach
of a bridge with a high toll.  Would
agriculture capital flow into Ireland?
Those who said so misunderstood the mode
in which agriculture should be conducted.
The introduction of agricultural capital
would not have the effect of furnishing
employment for much manual labour.  If
five men were at present employed in
draining a field in Ireland, under an improved
system of agriculture, that work
might be performed by three men, which
would cause a saving to the capitalist
of the wages of two labourers.  If ten
men were now employed in thrashing, the
capitalist would go to the adjoining town
and purchase a thrashing machine, which
would supersede the labour of most of
the men.  A redundancy of population
operated against improvements in machinery.
It was one of the misfortunes attending
the state of the population, that
the great principle of the wealth of this
country - namely, her machinery - was at
present in abeyance, from the impossibility
which was found to exist of displacing
manual labour from the channels in which
it was at present employed.  Some persons
maintained, that it would be better to
employ the redundant population in cultivating
the waste lands of Ireland than to
send them to colonies.  He believed
that no man of any authority in the country
could be found to concur in that proposition.
If labour was to be applied to
cultivation, let it be employed, not upon
land which would barely yield a crop, but
upon lands which, like those in our colonies,
were known to produce the most fertile
crops for an indefinite period.  But if
it was considered desirable to cultivate the
waste lands of Ireland, why not try that
scheme contemporaneously with emigration,
for the purpose of striking a
balance between the two plans, and seeing
which was likely to be attended with the
best results?  In connexion with this subject,
he begged to call the attention
of the noble lord (J. Russell), who had
given notice of a motion for a committee
to inquire into the causes of the increase
of crime, to a charge which had lately been
delivered by the chief justice of the
Common Pleas.  That learned person had
given it as his opinion, that the increase of
crime and the lowness of wages were correlative
terms.  No man, he thought, could
doubt that the increase of crime was the
result of the lowness of wages, which
induced the labouring classes to resort to
other means than industry to supply their
wants.  All these important considerations
were interwoven with the question of a
redundancy of population.  If the redundant
portion of the population were extracted
from the market, the price of labour would
rise.  This must be done before it would be
possible to withdraw that clause of the poor-laws,
which compelled parishes to find employment
for the unemployed part of the
population.  So long as that clause existed,
it would act as a bonus on population.
Mr. Malthus was of opinion, that unless
emigration was extensively resorted to, an
alteration of the poor-laws would speedily
be found necessary.  The opinions held by
Mr. Malthus on the subject of emigration
were, he was happy to find, adopted by
many persons in this country, and in the
colonies themselves.  Long before it was
possible that either the report or the
evidence of the last emigration committee
could have reached Canada, he found the
following resolutions had been passed at
Montreal.  [Here the right hon. member read
some resolutions in favour of emigration.]
This, he observed, confirmed the opinion
expressed by the committee, as to the want
of population in that district.  It was
worthy of remark, that we had in Canada 111
millions of acres of land capable of cultivation,
while in Great Britain the cultivated
land amounted to no more than 77
millions of acres; and that, while in Canada
the population amounted to no more
than one person for each 190 acres, we
had in England 57 persons to each 190
acres.  He had been informed by Mr.
Gallatin, the late American minister, that
when he first settled in the United States, he
placed himself at the very extreme limit of
cultivation, that was to say, upon the borders
of the forests, which had, up to that time,
been uninhabited; but that, if a line were
now to be drawn, it would be found that
a tract of country, extending more than
800 miles behind him, had since been
brought into cultivation.  If the same
course were adopted in our colonies - if
similar exertions were made - he had no
doubt that they would be productive of
the like effects.  He questioned whether
any policy would be more effective than
that of giving to some of our colonies
a population adequate to their cultivation;
and this we might do, by sending out the
superabundant population of the sister
country.  This would at once benefit the
individuals and prevent the desperate evils
caused by the sub-letting of land in that
country.  He thought, also, if the practice
of letting land adopted in this country was
extended to Ireland, it would tend to prevent
the too great increase of the population.
He looked more to the increased intelligence
and information which had been acquired
by Irish proprietors upon this subject than
to any other remedy.  Much, however, might
be expected from a judicious plan of
emigration.  If they looked to the Cape, they
would find, from the evidence of Mr. Pringle
that the distresses of the Colony were
attributed to the want of labouring persons,
and that merchants had even volunteered
to send over persons at their own cost.
With respect to New South Wales the
case was different.  That colony was
already capable of furnishing products
which had an exchangeable value, not
only with the mother country, but in
various parts of the Eastern Archipelago.
She therefore held out great temptations,
notwithstanding the extreme difference,
in point of distance, between her and the
other colonies. - Upon a review of all the
circumstances, he was bound to come to
the conclusion, not only that the plan of
relieving the country by encouraging
colonization was beneficial in a direct way,
but that it was impossible to lay out
capital with a better prospect of ensuring a fair
return, than by sending our supernumary
population to Canada.  In fact,
many parishes were so well aware of this,
that they would willingly undertake the
expense of sending their own poor, under
a convicton that in the present state, and
with the peculiar wants of the colony, they
could not expect anything more profitable
than an export of population.  Nor was it
in the home parishes alone that this truth
was felt and acknowledged.  In the colonies
themselves the inhabitants would be
most willing to pay the expense of conveyance,
if the individuals were articled to
them as servants on going out; so great
was the demand for labour of all kinds in
those places.  It was impossible for him
to enter into those minute details before
the House which would be best inquired
into in the committee; but he would say,
that those facts were numerous and conclusive,
and that the evidence of colonel
Talbot went to confirm that of the witnesses
examined before the committee,
which were all in favour of carrying a
national system of emigration, or rather of
colonization, into effect, at as small an
expense as possible.  He had stated these
facts and opinions to the House, because
he felt that they referred to a subject of
great importance, and upon which no
legislative measure ought to be adopted
without the sanction and support of public
opinion.  He had encountered much scepticism
in the course of these proceedings.
It was natural that he should have done so,
and therefore he did not complain.  Nothing
was more common, or more easy,
than to charge those plans with being
visionary which were still to be tried.
But, whatever charges might be brought
against the plan which he was so anxious to
recommend, nothing could be more conclusive
than the evidence by which its
practicability was established.  The more
he saw of the progress of public opinion,
the more he was convinced of the
increasing disposition to look at this subject
with an impartial eye; and though, perhaps,
they were not yet prepared to go to
the full extent of his wishes, the day, he
believed, was not far distant when the
country would approach the question, and
deal with it upon those sound principles
which alone could ensure success to the
experiment.  It was not improbable that he,
like many others to whom the task of
suggesting new measures was assigned by the
circumstances of the times, might have to
look forward to some future period for that
strong support which seldom attended the
early stages of any improvement; if so, it
would be his duty to submit with patience,
but he still should have the consolation of
thinking, that sooner or later the importance
of the facts he had been instrumental
in collecting, would be acknowledged
by the public voice.- Having thus
dismissed the general subject, he now came
to the Passengers' act, of which he had
given notice for that day.  It was with
regret he had heard that an hon. friend of
his had expressed an intention to oppose
it.  He would admit that this act was
objectionable, as its effect was, to check
emigration; but still he would have preferred
the middle course, of qualifying and
revising, instead of repealing it.  The necessity
of some such measure was to be inferred
from the evidence which government
had received on the subject.  There was
a despatch from sir Howard Douglas, which
represented the starving and distressed
condition in which many of the emigrants
had arrived at Halifax.  Such was the
effect of leaving unfortunate passengers to
the consideration of those who speculated
in their transport.  No one, he thought,
who looked at the subject without prejudice
would leave the ignorant persons
who crowded to the coasts of Ireland
either at the mercy of the captains with
whom they sailed, or to their own unassisted
discretion in providing for the voyage.
The most calamitous results might be
expected in either case; nay, had actually
resulted from the operation of the present
measure.  The despatch of sir James
Kemp, also from Halifax, alluded to the
same distress and misery which was noticed
in that of sir H. Douglas.  It was from a
knowledge of these facts, that he thought the
whole bill ought to be revived, under certain
modifications.  The object of that modification
would be, to establish a minimum of
space and of food, below which the emigrant
should not be supplied.  The utility
of such a rule was proved, not merely by
the disadvantages which had arisen from
its neglect, but by the positive advantage
with which its adoption was attended.  Of
the two thousand individuals who were taken
from Ireland in 1825, when this law was in
force, the health and comfort of the emigrants
was properly attended to.  There were
no deaths on the voyage, no sickness, nor
was there a single instance of crime.  From
the papers on the table it appeared, that the
amount of misery inflicted upon passengers
by the want of some positive regulation
with respect to the amount of space and of
food, was greater than might be expected.
It was to prevent the recurrence of such
misery, that he was desirous to introduce
a modified bill, asking only for the
establishment of a minimum with respect to
these two important points.  The United
States had already passed a measure, to
prevent the introduction of emigrants into
that country, except under certain regulations.
Our own colonies would feel the
benefit of so slight a regulation as that
which he proposed; and, above all, the
emigrants themselves would feel it, and the
opinion of the country would be more
favourably disposed, in consequence of it,
to the general measure from which he
anticipated so much good.  The emigration
which he contemplated was essentially
voluntary.  Founded upon that principle,
it would be attended with great advantage,
both as respected the colonies and the
mother country.  Without it the measure
must necessarily fall to the ground.  He
would own, that unless it was generally
felt to be of vital importance, unless it had
the public opinion strongly expressed in its
favour, it would be unsafe for any government
to meddle with a matter of so much
delicacy.  But he trusted that the attention
of the House and of the country
would not only be vigorously applied to
the subject, but would be strongly
influenced by the recommendations in which
their committees had concurred.  The
right hon. gentleman concluded by moving
for a "copy of the report of lieutenant colonel
Cockburn, laid before the Colonial Department,
on the subject of Emigration; together
with the Instructions received from that
Department on the 26th January 1827."
  Mr. Baring said, that the repayment of
any sum of money advanced to the emigrants
would be much easier than was
generally anticipated.  To prove his assertion
he referred to the evidence given
by Mr.Benton before the Emigration Committee.
He was convinced that, if the
emigration was conducted upon a wise
and suitable plan, and if the settlers could
be placed, not at a distance from the
cultivated part of the Canadas, but upon the
confines of civilization, so as to be enabled,
after planting their own land, to earn some
remuneration by labouring for others, it
would require no assistance from this
country to support the settler after he had
once been sent out.  Besides, even if he
could support himself, the Legislative Assembly
of Canada had declared itself willing
to give him assistance.  If government
would either give up part of the Crown
lands, or should part with the supremacy
over them, the assembly would provide for
the support of every indigent person who
might be sent over into that province.  He
believed there was greater difficulty
experienced in preventing settlers from going
from Canada into the United States, than
in providing for them in that colony.
One of the greatest objections to emigration
to Canada was the tenure under
which land was held in that colony.  A
law was passed several years ago to remove
these objections, but it had never been
carried into effect.
  Mr. James Grattan said, he looked at
the question of emigration purely as one
of money.  There were two ways in which
it might be carried into execution - either
by the grant of a million of the public
money, or by sums advanced by individual
speculation.  The right hon. gentleman
had told them, that if the public advanced
the money, it should not be considered as
so much money lost, but simly as a loan.
He would admit that if we were allowed
to take corn from the Canadas in payment
of our advances, we might not lose our
money; but he had yet to learn how far
that would be permitted.  With respect to
individual speculation, he had not yet
heard of any one Irish proprietor who had
offered to advance 50l. a head for the removal
of his tenantry.  As far as he could
learn, the feeling of the Irish proprietors
was, that their money, if they must raise
a sum by assessment among themselves,
would be much better expended upon
local improvements, than upon objects
which took their money to a distant country,
and removed to a very distant time all
hopes of being remunerated for the outlay
of it.  It was easy to talk of expending a
million of the public money on such objects:
but were we bound to exhaust our
finances, and to export our population to
bring the Canadas into a state of cultivation?
The great difficulty, it appeared,
was to keep the emigrants, when once
they got to Canada, from quitting it for
the United States; and certainly we did
not want an influx of the Irish population
to increase their strength and their
hostility towards England.  It was proposed,
too, that the million of money should be
distributed by a public board; and individuals
had gone so far as to form the
emigrants into different classes for exportation.
The first class to be exported
consisted of those who had been ejected
from their farms; the second, of those
who were under process of ejectment; and
the third, of those whom the board might
select from the population at large.  Now,
he must say, that such a plan appeared
to him to be most censurable.  The evil
under which Ireland now suffered was the
movement of the tenantry, and this plan
was calculated to aggravate it; for as soon
as an Irish proprietor could ascertain that
it was to be carried into effect, he would
write to his agent to serve writs of
ejectment on his tenantry, in order that they
might be qualified for selection by the
Board of Emigration.  If the right hon.
gentleman could force the gentry of Ireland
to attend to the state of their property
in that country, and could induce
them not to let their estates be over-peopled,
much of the evil under which
Ireland now laboured might be relieved
without having recourse to any organized
system of emigration at the expense of the
public.
  Colonel Davies said, he had no sanguine
expectations of success from the
scheme which the right hon. gentleman
had propounded to the House.  In order
to make such a scheme of advantage to
England, it must be attended not only
with an alteration of the whole system of
our Poor-laws, but with some measure
which would prevent the influx of such
numbers of Irish paupers as were daily
finding their way over into England.  He
was decidedly of opinion, that there was
little chance of any repayment of the
money advanced to the emigrants for the
purpose of carrying them abroad.
  Sir F. Burdett agreed, that the subject
demanded their most serious attention.
He did not, however, think that the House
was furnished at present with the means of
forming a correct judgment on the details
of the plan.  There was no person who
was more convinced of its importance than
he was; for he thought it the best, and,
indeed, the only way of relieving the
distresses of both England and Ireland;
and he considered it as much an English
as an Irish question, and one of as
great importance as any taken up by the
leading politicians of the day, whether
with regard to the freedom of trade, the
education of the people, or Catholic
emancipation.  He thought the right hon.
gentleman deserved the highest credit for
the perseverance and ability with which
ha had called the attention of the House
to the subject.
  Mr. Slaney agreed entirely with the
hon. baronet, that this was by no means
an Irish question, but one as closely
connected with the welfare and happiness of
England as any that could occupy the
attention of parliament.  The subject was
one of great importance, even if taken in
no other view than that it would give a
check to the progress of misery, the
termination of which no one could forsee.
As to the Poor-laws of England, it would
be his duty to bring this matter shortly
before the House, and he would therefore
abstain from making any observation upon
it.  He only wished now to thank the
right hon. member for the labour he had
bestowed, and the attention he had given,
to a subject of such vital importance.  He
advised hon. members to read the report
of the Emigration-Committee, before they
found fault with its recommendations.
  Mr. Leycester avowed himself an enemy
to emigration, which appeared to him to
be a system of gross impolicy, and might,
indeed, be termed a system of statistical
suicide.  If he were asked what was to
be done with a superabundant population,
he would answer, employ them in improving
and cultivating the waste lands, which
would give employment to thousands.
Such cultivation was certainly impeded by
barriers of no ordinary difficulty; namely,
the poor-laws, tithes, and taxes; but remove
them, and the advantages would be
of easy attainment.  He had himself paid
no less than 6,000l. for reclaiming a
hundred acres of waste land, and it would not
have cost him more than half that sum if
it had not gone into his majesty's Exchequer.
  Mr. Benett said, it was clear from the
report on emigration, that whatever vacuum
we might make would be filled up
as rapidly as it was made.  Under these
circumstances, he thought no sum of
money would effect the proposed object.
He would not, however, object to the remedy
proposed without stating another.
The right hon. gentleman had said, that
the land in this country and Ireland was
exhausted.  That could not be true; for
the bogs of Ireland had never been touched
with the plough.  The real embargo on
cultivation was to be found in the amount
of taxes and tithes; in the uncertainty in
the price of corn, and in the value of
money.  If these evils were removed,
neither England nor Ireland would be
found to have a surplus population.  Men,
when unemployed, had lately been spoken
of as a sort of mischievous animal of which
the country must be rid at any rate, and
as if no means would be too great to effect
such a riddance.  Every other domestic
animal had its price; but man seemed to
be considered so far inferior to them, that
instead of claiming a price we offered one
to get him away.  Our colonists, wiser
than ourselves, were willing to do what
they could to obtain what we thus foolishly
rejected.  Was it not possible, therefore,
for us to make a profit of the concern?
Could we not sell the unfortunate wild
Irish who were now proposed to be
removed at our expense?  We might make
money by such a measure; and in these
days of economy such a consideration
ought not to be neglected.  The poor
wretches themselves would not suffer more
in being sold to the colonies, than they
would in being banished from their native
land.  he had an objection to allowing
the overseers to superintend the emigration
from their respective parishes, as he
conceived that much oppression and distress
would result from such a plan.  By
voluntary emigration they would get rid of
the valuable and enterprising members of
society, and the evil which was said to
afflict this country and Ireland would
remain undiminished.  The want of
employment was the great evil, and that
could be best remedied by removing the
obstacles which stood in the way of the
employment of the poor, instead of resorting
to this comparatively useless measure
of emigration.  From time to time there
was an immense number of men sentenced
to seven years transportation.  These
men were confined for three or four years
on board the hulks, and then, after their
education has been perfected, they were
again let loose upon the public.  Why not
send these men abroad at once for seven
years?  He, as a magistrate, was well
aware of the evil created by allowing
them to return back to society: they
generally resorted to their old habits, and
when next taken were hanged.  By getting
rid of that class of persons a real
good would be effected.  They would
leave a land where their character was
forfeited for ever, and would be introduced
to a new country, where they might
in time become worthy members of society.
He was for getting rid of the bad,
and for keeping the good.  He should be
glad to see the hon. members plan
confined to an emigration of those individuals.