Debates On Relief Of Distress In Ireland.
RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND). On the Motion of the CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER the House resolved itself into Committee on the above subject, Mr. Bernal in the Chair. The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move that the Committee agree to a vote for the purpose of affording relief to certain unions in the west of Ireland. Gentlemen would probably recollect that a similar vote was proposed at the end of last Session. When the failure of the potato crop was apprehended, questions were put to his noble Friend and himself as to the course the Government intended to pursue; and they were urged at that time to bring forward some measure for the purpose of affording relief to the destitution prevalent in some parts of Ireland. The answer they gave was, that they did not think it expedient at that time to bring forward any large measure whatever; and that if circumstances should be such as to render it necessary, it would be their duty to call Parliament together before any step of that kind was taken; but they did ask the House to entrust them with some small discretionary power, in order to enable them to take measures, if they should turn out to be necessary, for the preservation of human life. That course seemed to meet the acquiescence of the House; and he recollected that the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) whom he did not now see in his place, afterwards stated that he entirely concurred in it. His first duty would be, to give an account of what had been done since the close of the last Session in pursuance of this plan. Hon. Gentlemen had probably seen the report published by the British Association of Relief extended to certain unions in Ireland in the course of the years 1847 and 1848. A state of things very similar to that of the former years existed in the course of last autumn, for although a larger quantity of potatoes was planted in many parts of Ireland than in the year 1847, the failure had been nearly as general as in the year 1846, and the quantity available for food was not greater than in 1847. It had become, therefore, absolutely necessary in some few instances to afford relief. It turned out, however, that there were available funds remaining from those collected by voluntary subscription by the British Association. These had, to the extent of 12,000l.[pounds?], been issued to some of the unions; but when they were exhausted, the Government were called upon to make some further advance. They had made an advance to the amount of 3,000l.[pounds?]; that was the extent to which they had exercised the discretion entrusted to them by Parliament after the funds collected by the British Association were exhausted. At the earliest possible moment of the new Session, they were desirous of stating what had been done; and he should next proceed to inform the House what they proposed to do, under the present circumstances of Ireland, and particularly of the western portions of that country. The papers which had been delivered yesterday morning, were by no means all they might have laid on the table of the House: but they thought it far better to lay on the table a few papers which Gentlemen probably would have time to read, than to call on them to wade through the interminable pages of a large blue book. It was certainly very satisfactory to have to state that, with the exception of a very small portion of Ireland, he did not believe that any assistance whatever was either wished for or necessary; the greater portion of the east and north of Ireland was not more distressed at this moment than parts of the south of England. The rates were collected as easily as in many parts of the south of England. In other parts of Ireland there was not the least need of assistance if proper exertions were made. He might refer to the case of the union of Listowel, in which the collection of the rates had fallen into some disorder. An active officer was sent down, and within six weeks the demands over due were not only paid, but a balance of 700l. [pounds?] remained in the treasurer's hands. It was, notwithstanding, imperatively necessary, unless they wished to see hundreds perishing from starvation in certain districts of Ireland, that some assistance should be given by this country. He thought it indispensable that the distribution of that assistance should be administered under the most stringent and rigorous regulations, in order to prevent fraud. Hon. Gentlemen complained of the poor-law, and attributed to it all those evils which now afflicted Ireland - evils which might more justly be attributed to the dispensation of Providence in the failure of that main article of food on which so large a proportion of the population of Ireland depended. He perfectly agreed in the observation of the hon. Gentleman behind him, that the present state of things in Ireland was abnormal, and not such as the poor-law was calculated to relieve. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not surprised at the statements he had heard of the extreme unpopularity of the poor-law in all parts of Ireland, not only amongst those who paid the rates, but those who received relief. No doubt to both parties it would be infinitely more agreeable that relief should be afforded from the treasury of the United Kingdom. Those who paid rates would naturally prefer not having to pay, and those who received relief, now rigorously administered as it was, in order to prevent abuses, would infinitely prefer to receive it in the shape in which it was administered in the year 1847, when there was no machinery adequate to the purpose of correcting the abuses which prevailed from one end of the country to the other. He thought, judging from experience of the last two years, that the machinery of the poor-law was that best adapted to afford the relief which he believed to be necessary. He considered that the evils which prevailed in Ireland were in no degree to be ascribed to the poor-law, as the effect of that law was to mitigate and palliate the evils which arose from the failure of the food of the people. A letter of Mr. Lang, relief inspector, from the Bantry union, very clearly explained the effects which had recently occurred on the condition of the population:- "That the Commissioners may have a clear conception of the grounds on which I found my opinion, it may be expedient to give a brief sketch of the circumstances under which a large proportion of the landed property of the union had been placed for many years previous to the failure of the potato crop. When this was a potato-growing country, and the crop flourished, the landlords and the middlemen found it very easy and certain mode of increasing their incomes, to permit every tenant or branch of his family to erect hovels of any description on every patch of land among the glens and rocks of the mountains or along the sea-coast, and rather to countenance than discourage the establishment of swarms of cottier tenants on their lands. These contrived, either by taking con-acres from the larger occupiers, or by cultivating patches for their own holdings, to grow sufficient potatoes to fatten a pig or two to pay the rent. Hordes of this class of cottier tenantry, when they had planted the patch of potatoes in spring, shut up their cabins or left them in charge of the aged and infirm, and led an idle, vagrant, begging life throughout the summer months. To some of these cottier holdings was attached the privilege of grazing a cow, and a few sheep or goats, upon the adjacent mountains - and from each of these tenements the landlord or the middleman contrived to squeeze out a rent from 1l. to 5l. [pounds?] yearly; and these rents were better paid than any stranger to the country and the habits of the people could have believed it possible to extract from such a class fo tenantry. Hence, the greater the amount of population a proprietor could locate on his estate, the larger became the rent-roll. The consequences of the failure of the only crop upon which these masses subsisted and depended for the payment of rent, may easily be conceived; they became one and all paupers, and were thrown on the rates for support: large tracts of land became waste and unproductive, from which there is now neither rate nor rent to be obtained - the landlords had exacted the last farthing. At no period could such a class of tenantry accumulate any capital or means to fall back upon for subsistence; and the whole system induced and inculcated those idle and vagrant habits, and that indisposition to fixed and steady habits of industry, so generally complained of, and now falsely attributed to the operation of the poor-law, and its demoralising influence. But the same apathy and want of energy and exertion existed always and were the natural consequences of the system. It was then only seen- now it begins to be felt." He believed this description applied to a large portion of the western districts of Ireland, and coming from an eye-witness was well worthy of attention. The consequence of this state of things was, that a certain portion of the higher class of rate-payers had no longer the means of paying rates, and that others who formerly had paid rates became themselves dependent for support upon the rates. If any hon. Gentleman attributed this state of things to the poor-law, he would ask of him to consider what the position of affairs would be it the poor-law did not exist? It was obvious that if there had been no poor-law in Ireland during the late season of famine, hundreds of thousands of persons must necessarily have died of absolute destitution. Robbery and plunder must have prevailed to a frigthful extent; for it was not to be expected that the rights of property would have been respected by starving crowds, and probably something like a servile war would have broken out. The efforts that would then, no doubt, be made to put that down, would have been attended with much greater expense to this country than any that they were now called upon to bear. After the destruction of the potato crop, it became evident that for three consecutive years the amount of the population and the amount of food were no longer adequate to each other, and that the former must be diminished or the latter increased before the country could be restored to a state of safety. The diminution of the population had gone on. It was impossible to deny but that many persons had died, if not from actual starvation, at least from disease brought on by an insufficient supply of food. But, in addition to this, emigration had gone on to a considerable extent, to nearly a million in two years, principally to America. He had before him the papers that had been just laid before Parliament relating to the aid afforded to the distressed unions in the west of Ireland, and he had also some connected with the Ballina union, which had arrived that day, and were, he regretted to say, not in time to be printed with the others. From these documents it appeared that an extra-ordinary dimunition of the population had taken place in some unions. Captain Kennedy, the temporary poor-law inspector, wrote to the Commissioners on the 7th of November last, respecting the Kilrush union:- "I do not believe that there are a sufficient number of labourers in this union to bring it to the same degree of cultivation and productiveness as some parts of the county of Down and Antrim: and yet the whole labouring population are starving, while hardly an ace is drained or improved. At a very moderate computation I believe that four times the quantity of food might be produced." Now if they did not get wages, how could the people but food? It was right to add, however, that Captain Kennedy stated in his report that- "The rates are being well and cheerfully paid, and the influential classes, however embarrassed they may be, do not evade their payment, or encourage others in opposition." Captain Kennedy in the same letter thus described the utter apathy of the owners of the soil in the Kilrush Union:- "The utter absence of employment of any kind throughout the union is almost incredible, and where such is given it is in exchange for food alone, a very limited number of persons in the union giving wages. I can see no solution of the difficulties and distresses of this union save by a well-directed effort on the part of proprietors and occupiers to give reproductive employment; such, however, under existing circumstances, will not or cannot be given, though all practical men agree in its necessity, and that a finer or more profitable field for labour cannot be found. The Land Improvement Act has conferred no benefit on this union, a very trifling sum having been applied for or taken under it. A universal distrust and want of confidence exists between all classes, which prevents the useful efforts of individuals having their desired effects. The extensive dispossession of the small landholders, and consolidation of farms, will require time to produce their anticipated good effects, while the suffering and embarrassments are immediate and undoubted." Every exertion was being made, in order to secure the due and proper administration of the poor-law; but from the people having been turne3d out of their holdings in large numbers, a very large proportion of the population, indeed, had become dependent on the rates. He alluded to this matter in order to show that the complaints which were so constantly made of the existence of a great superabundant population in Ireland were by no means universally true. As to the Ballina union, which was also one of the most distressed unions in the country, the opinion not only of the poor-law inspector, but of two or three other gentlemen who had been examined, and whose evidence was before him, was that the population was not too large, net merely for the cultivation of waste lands actually under culture. Colonel Knox Gore, a large proprietor in the county of Slogo, stated that "There is quite enough of land in this district to employ all the ablebodied population, without taking into account the bog and mountain land that might be reclaimed; the improvement of which, with very few exceptions, I believe to be a ruinous speculation." It is notorious that emigration had been carried on to a most remarkable extent, and it so happened that this emigration had proceeded most extensively in those unions in which the greatest distress prevailed. The consequence was, that estates had, in the more impoverished districts, been relieved from the great number of cottier tenants with which they had been crowded, and who had been always spoken of as the great and insuperable obstacle to the improvement of the land. Alluding to this subject, Colonel Knox Gore said- "I have lost nearly one-third of my smaller tenants since 1846. Most of them have emigrated to America, or have become labourers, occupying cottages and gardens." Major Gardener stated that he had lost seven-eights of his tenants principally by emigration. Now, when the reduction of the population had taken place to so great an extent, he had very much doubted whether it would be for the advantage of the country to encourage any farther removal of the people, who were absolutely necessary for the proper cultivation of the soil. The great decrease in the number of small tenements, and the increase in those of larger size, were, in some instances, most satisfactory. In the union of Ballina the number of tenements valued under 4l. in 1846 was 17,216, while in 1849 the number was 10,354, showing a diminution in this class of tenantry of 6,862; and in the case of tenements valued under 8l., there had been a decrease, in the same union, of 7,676, within the same period. In the two poorest electoral divisions of the union, there was, at the same time, an increase in the number of large tenements; the increase in one of these districts - that of Belmullet- being from 77 to 98, for the year 1849, as compared with 1846. The result of this state of things was, that in those unions where the greatest distress prevailed, they were approaching a state when there was every ground to hope that improvement would take place. The extra population was removed from them, and what was now wanting was a supply of capital in the hands of active proprietors or tenants, able and determined properly to cultivate the land. He had already quoted the evidence of Colonel Gore before the poor-law inspectors, and further on he found the following remarks on this part of the subject. Colonel Gore stated that - "I look entirely to the improvement on the waste lands to give me enough to feed and clothe my family: for as to carriages, wine, and other luxeries, I have long since given them up, and my establishment is now like a mere rent-paying farmer, struggling to pay by exertion of skill and industry a high rent, which the rates and county cess are on waste lands." He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) might mention a still more melancholy case; that of a gentleman, Colonel V. Jackson, who for some time exerted himself with the greatest success as a guardian of the Swineford union. The sacrifices which that gentlemen incurred, and the ruin which came upon him in consequence, obliged him to apply to the Poor Law Commissioners for employment; they were too happy to serve him; he was appointed to a district in the south of Ireland, where he proved himself to be a most efficient officer; but he was sorry to say that he very shortly caught a fever in visiting the Ennis workhouse, and the country had been deprived of his services by death. While so many attacks were made - perhaps in some cases with much justice - on the gentlemen of Ireland, for attempts to evade the liabilities of their position, he felt very happy to take that opportunity of doing justice to a nubleman whose name had been mentioned on a former occasion in that House with some blame. He meant the Earl of Lucan. That nobleman had,he was very glad to be able to say, devoted himself with great success to the cultivation and reclamation of the land. He had employed a large number of people on his estates, and had removed a portion of the remaining population to America. His improvements had been carried on over a great tract of country in the Castlebar union, and with every possible success. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would now read to the House the conclusion of the report from the inspector as to the Ballina union. It had not yet been printed; but he could assure the House that it was well deserving of their attentions:- "In conclusion, I may state that up to the present the rates have been comparatively light in this union, but they have been as heavy as could have been borne. As I before said, I am surprised that they have been paid so well, considering the state of the union - a state which I do believe requires to be seen to be believed. At all events, I have seen nothing to equal it, although I have no doubt there are some of the neighbouring unions just as bad. I do not attribute the present insolvent state of the ratepayers to the amount of rates which they have been called upon to pay; neither do I attribute the present deplorable condition of the recipients of relief to the potato failure of last year. The ratepayers will, no doubt, be benefited; but I do not believe that an improved condition of the majority of the recipients of relief is at all contingent upon the success of the potato or any other description of crop. What the latter classes require is the circulating medium, without which they cannot honestly profit by an abundance of food at any price. If the labourers were inclined to work hard, and employers were inclined and able to encourage them by paying fair wages, there is more than an abundance of profitable labour for every labourer in the union, and the rates might be considerably reduced. At present the labourers are badly able to work; they have suffered so many hardships in various ways, that a robust healthy-looking man is rarely to be met with. Most of the landlords cannot afford to pay for work: those who can are in dread of the undefined prospect of rates; and, with two or three exceptions, are doing as little as they possibly can. Whether the future success of the potato crop would enable and induce the landlords to pay for fair wages for fair work, is, I think, very doubtful. It appears to me the tendency would be rather to return to the old state of affairs, nothwithstanding the bitter experience of the last three years. I can therefore, see no other remedy for the present and probable state of the union, but a great change and importation of proprietors; and I think that moderate rates on the average for a time will effect this sooner than rates which cannot be paid, and whicjh will effectually prevent any person worth having from settling or investing capital in this union." The rates in that union amounted to 2s. 10d.; but that fact gave a very inadequate view of the real state of pressure from taxation, for the rate in the pound on many electoral divisions was much higher, and in many it was almost impossible to make any collection. He might continue this description by referring to many other parts of Ireland; but he thought it was better for him to confine his remarks to one or two of the unions; and he had taken Ballina union as being one of the worst in the country. He thought that he had entered sufficiently upon the question to show that in the present state of these unions employment to a large extent, in proportion to the remaining population, might be given; but during suspension of that employment, and in the present depressed state of the unions, he would ask, how was this country to stand by and see thousands of their fellow-subjects starving, and left without the means of supporting life - a state of distress which would not possibly be prevented by any local efforts for some months to come. In the Ballina union the last rate struck was between 16,000l. and 17,000l., and to the collection of this large amount, so far as it had gone, no obstruction had been offered, or no evasion attempted, on the part of those who were at all able to pay. But if hon. Gentleman would turn to pages 14 and 15 of the returns, they would find that there was a large proportion of the land waste, and in which it was utterly impossible to collect the rates by any means whatever. He would read a few of the returns of the defaulters, in order to show how they were circumstanced, and whose condition was but too truly described:- "Denis Bingham, esq., Binghamstown, 194l. 17s. 6«d. - There is an execution against Mr. Bingham's body for the former rate due by him. "The Daniel Madden, esq., Ballycastle, 69l. 17s. 8d These properties are nearly all waste; there is not, I believe, 20l. worth of stock on them. "Mrs. William Bingham, Belmullet, 41l. 8s. - Mrs. Bingham has hardly the means of supporting herself. I understand some tenants, who possess stock, have lately taken farms from her. The collector will distrain the land as soon as he can legally do so. "Mr. Short is in distressed circumstances. The collector will serve a fifteen days' notice. There is hardly anything on the lands. "Mr. Fowler died lately. There is hardly anything on the lands." In another case- "The lands are a complete waste." As to several other cases, the observation is - "These lands are nearly all waste. It would be useless to take proceedings against any of the parties; they have scarcely the means of supporting themselves." If hon. Members would now turn to page 21, they would see a list containing the names of the twelve highest ratepayers in the electoral division of Kilcrohane, in the Bantry union; and it appeared that out of those twelve there were only four from whom there was the slightest chance of obtaining payment, the remarks in the other eight cases being, "Lands waste; tenants run away; no distress; tenants paupers;" and so on. He would now refer the Committee to one more union - the Clifden union. At page 45:- The net value of union... œ19,986 Ditto, at and under 4l. ... 7, 434 Ditto, given up to landlords, not occupied, and now waste... 9,449 Ditto, of holdings, the occupiers of which are so poor that it is impossible to recover rates from... 1,673 These two last sums make 11,122l., being nearly eleven-nineteenths of the whole valuation unproductive as to rates." Hon. Gentleman would see from these statements that in the greater portion of this electoral division it was utterly and altogether impossible that the rates could be expected. The facts of last year with regard to many of the unions were conclusive as to the present, because it was not to be supposed that the conditions of these unions would be better for this present year than they were in the last. More of the lands would be left waste, and the capacity of those who paid in the unions be diminished both in number and in power. But if hon. Members would refer to page 10, they would see the expenditure in some of those unions for the last year, and the sums that had been collected. Assistance had been given to those unions by the Government, principally from the produce of the voluntary subscription of the British Association. If anybody would compare the expense incurred in those unions, together with the amount collected, and the amount that it had been necessary to advance, they would be convinced that it was utterly impossible to obtain from those unions the sums that were required. In the union of Ballina the amount required was 52,282l., and the amount advanced in aid by the British Association was 36,260l. He saw no prospect that the sum required for the relief of the poor would be less this year than it was last. He had already stated that 10,177l. had been collected last autumn in the union of Ballina, which left a deficiency of about 6,000l. More might possibly be collected in the course of this summer. But it was not easy at that period of the year to make any great collections; and even if they were able to double the sum, it would be utterly inadequate to the maintenance of life among the paupers in the union. So also with Ballinrobe, Castlebar, and the others. This state of things, however, did not apply to Ireland generally. The collection of poor's-rate throughout the country had been very large. If hon. Gentlemen would turn to the last page of these papers, they would see, that taking Ireland throughout, a very large part of the rates had been collected. They must remember that this was a new measure in Ireland; and though he was not disposed to be lenient where rates could be collected, yet he felt that where it was utterly impossible to collect them, that House must come forward to their relief. The amount of poor-rate collected in Ireland was - In the year ending Sept. 29, 1846... œ371,846 " " " 1847... 638,403 " " " 1848...1,627,700 He thought that it would not be denied, therefore, that great exertions had been used, that rates had been collected to a considerable amount, though they certainly were not adequate to the wants of the poor. In nine-tenths of Ireland, he believed, the people were perfectly capable to pay the rates, as much so as they were in England. That being the state of the case, her Majesty's Government, after various statements had been made to them of what he had read were samples, had come to the conclusion that it was necessary to give assistance from the public funds to those unions. He quite agreed with those who thought that assistance ought to be given under the most stringent and rigorous supervision, as he, believed that nothing but such regulations would prevent the grant from being abused. He was willing and anxious that the sums so applied should be only given to prevent starvation, to prevent loss of life to a degree that would be perfectly frightful. The means by which he proposed to do this was, not as last year, by a vote of supply, but to take the money out of the Consolidated Fund; and the reason why he proposed such a course were these: they had, in the first place, received a sum of 78,000l., in repayment of advances made of relief committees, that was to say, they had received this from those unions which were in a better condition than others in Ireland, and to that extent repaid their advances. In the next place, of the sum that had been issued to Sir John Burgoyne's Relief Committee they were enabled to reserve 106,000l., independent of the sum of 100,000l., which he had saved out of the same fund last year. he had, therefore, been able to carry the sun of 106,000l. to the account of the Consolidated Fund. More than that, he was happy to say that the revenue of the country had so improved in the course of the autumn, that he had every reason to hope that the sum which he had thought it necessary to borrow to meet the current expenditure had not been required; the current revenue would be found equal to the expenditure of the year, and therefore that sum was still in the Exchequer, as it was not wanted to defray the expenditure of the year. [Mr. GOULBURNasked what was the total amount of the sums alluded to?] Hon. Gentlemen would remember he had stated last year that he had reduced the expenditure within 292,000l. of the estimated income of the year. He believed now that the estimated income would equal the expenditure. The sum which was voted to what was calle Sir John Burgoyne's Relief Commission was 1,700,000l. Of that sum, 106,000l, yet remained, which might not unfairly be considered available to the relief of the distressed unions. In addition to that, there was the 78,000l. repaid by certain of the unions, making together an available fund of 184,000l. And this sum was, it must be understood, entirely exclusive of the repayments for relief works, amounting to about 39,000l., which for a certain time would be available for the execution of further works of similar description. He proposed now to take a sum not exceeding 50,000l. from the Consolidated Fund: he did not mean to say that that was all that might be required in the course of the year, but he thought it would be inexpedient to name a larger sum, because he thought it would excite hopes and expectations which would be unfavourable to the moral condition of the people. He wished to obtain the sanction od Parliament for that sum, leaving it with them to grant or to withhold any future sum which might appear to be necessary; and of course, he must have the sanction of the Legislature, and an Act of Parliament, for every grant that was made. The sum which he now proposed would enable Government to afford assistance for a certain time; and before any further grant could be made, it would be his duty again to come down to Parliament and to ask for their sanction. the vote which he now proposed to put into the Chairman's hands was - "That the Commissioners of HerMajesty's Treasury of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland be authorised to direct the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of the said United Kingdom of any sum, not exceeding 50,000l., for affording relief to certain distressed Poor Law Unions in Ireland." MR. P. SCROPE apologised for presenting himself so early in the debate; but as this was a vote for the disbursing of funds from the Imperial Exchequer, he thought that an English Gentleman was entitled to express his opinions upon the subject. He thanked God to find that the Government had discovered at length the futility of relying upon the voluntary exertions of the Irish landowners, who as a body either would not, or could not, or at any rate did not employ the people, or apply a remedy which was fitted to rescue them out of their present horrible condition. He had placed a Motion on the Paper to-day which he should now press in the form of an Amendment to the present Vote. He by no means dissented from the proposition that it was necessary for the Government to step in and advance public money for the relief of these distressed unions. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) that it was impossible they could support themselves, and the multitudes would die of starvation unless they were supported by extraneous aid. The difference between him and the right hon. Gentleman was not as to the source from whence the funds were to be derived, but as to the mode in which it was to be given; whether it was to be made an absolute present to the people of those districts, or whether it was to be given on conditions which would ensure, in the first place, that the money would be spent in productive labour on the land; and, in the second place, and as a consequence of that productive employment, that the money so advanced should be repaid from the land. He knew many persons would say, "What! repayments from Ireland! - nhow is that to be expected? We have already lent them 6,000,000l. [pounds?] or 8,000,000l. [pounds?], and in the course of six months afterwards we were obliged to excuse the half of them, and the recovery of the money from the other half of them is highly problematical." Now, he believed that these advances would not be repaid if they were spent as the last had been, in feeding paupers in idleness. But he believed they would be repaid if they were spent in the cultivation of those rich and fertile lands which they had heard were now lying waste. The evil was, that when money was advanced, the Irish gentlemen spent it upon anything and nothing, because they never expected that the sums were to be repaid. But it would be a very different thing, if the money was spent in the draining of bogs, and bringing land into a reproductive state. The proposition which he was about to make to the House consisted of two parts: first, that the money should be advanced only upon loan, and that a strict lien should be taken for it upon the rateable property in the union; and, in the second place, that the money so advanced should be productively expended, not in feeding idle paupers, whether in or out of the workhouse, while the lands were lying waste. The proposition appeared to him to be so undeniable, that he could hardly conceive how any one could object to it, if it were not for the fact, that up to this time for the last three years the system pursued by the Government had been the very reverse. The money was indeed nominally lent, but it was really given, and it was spent in the most unproductive manner. Ablebodied labourers were employed on works that were of no use whatever, and the consequence was that the infirm poor, who could not work, died in vast numbers. Then came the system of soup kitchens, which of course was unproductive - 3,000,000 of people were fed in that way, while about 700,000 ablebodied paupers were left useless in the workhouses. In some of the unions - those in which the whole number of applicants could not be accommodated - the inspectors had recommended the principle of giving the preference in admission to ablebodied men, with whom, in several instances, the workhouses were filled. What a condition for a district to be reduced to - the greater portion of the ablebodied labourers cooped up in a workhouse, useless to themselves and to society! In some districts the inspectors had introduced, but only to a very small extent, the principle of the self-supporting system, and in these instances that system had worked admirably. In the Kilrush union the ablebodied paupers had been employed upon the workhouse farm; but this was a breach of the general rule laid down by the Commissioners; but owing to the intervention of Captain Kennedy, the experiment was allowed to be tied. Let the Government follow that example, or let them imitate the Quakers of Mayo, who had taken up about 500 acres of land that had been left waste, and had produced admirable crops from it. He did not care whether they operated upon what was commonly called "waste land," or upon land which had been left waste. In either case, by so employing the paupers of Ireland, they interfered less with private property and private industry than by employing them in any other way. This would be an immense advantage in a moral point of view, and the expenses incurred would be no heavier, than they were at present. The only species of labour which the Commissioners were willing, however, to sanction, was stone-breaking within the workhouse. What was the result of this system in an economic point of view? He (Mr. P. Scrope) had been assured by a gentleman who was a witness to the fact, that upwards of 100l. had actually been paid to the peasantry for breaking a heap of stones, which, in the ordinary payment for labour, would have cost only 30s. Surely digging and building in the open air formed as good a task as breaking stones within a workhouse. He put it to the hon. Members whether they would not execute with great repugnance a work which they knew to be unprofitable? Would they not look upon it as a peculiarly offensive and unthankful task? Would they not, in the present instance, be inclined to consider that the test of unprofitable labour was nothing but a sort of punishment for being poor. It was scarcely necessary for him, after what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to refer to the enormous resources which existed in many Irish unions for the employment of the pauper population. He might mention, however, that in a group of eight unions the expenditure for the relief of the poor, ending September 1848, had been 222,311l., while the rates collected in these eight unions for the same period amounted only to 44,195l., leaving an amount of upwards of 160,000l., or four times the amount of rates which had been collected, to be made up by Government grants, and by the exertions of the British Association. In fact, the assistance thus afforded amounted to a rate of 8s. 6d. in the pound. This statement showed the amount of distress in the unions in question. Now then, on the other hand, what were the resources of the unions in question? The area of these eight unions was 2,228,000 acres. In the year 1847 the extent of land, out of that great superficies which was under cultivation - including in the estimate all the meadow, grass, and, and clover land - amounted only to 221,000 acres, being less than 1-10th of the whole area, the remaining two millions of acres being left in a state of absolutely unprofitable waste. Thus it would appear that in many cases 9-10ths of the area of the unions for which the House was called on to grant money was absolutely unproductive. Now surely this fact was sufficient to prove that money ought to be advanced as loans, not as gifts. Granting money without hope or prospect of repayment in such circumstances as those to which he was alluding, was actually putting a bonus, not only upon mismanagement of the [poor-laws], but upon mismanagement of land. What reasons had they for supposing that if this system were to go on the state of matters would ever improve? They had heard of vast tracts of land left waste, from which no rates would or could be extracted. Why, then, it was quite clear that if they extracted rates from land productively employed, and excused land not in cultivation, the evil of which they complained would spread, until every union would become one unproductive waste. What was the remedy which he proposed to employ? It was, that the House should insist upon those waste lands being cultivated, and that the ablebodied paupers should be employed for that purpose. Why should not a measure be passed compelling boards of guardians to expend, in this useful and profitable way, the labour which was now wasted? Such a plan would be productive of no interference with private industry or enterprise, as the land to be thus cultivated would otherwise lie waste. Let it never be lost sight of that they were obliged to maintain an immense mass of labour, whether they used it or not. Was it not then better to employ it profitably than to maintain it in useless idleness? Let them look to the abuses to which the present system gave rise. There was the case of the Westport union. The inhabitants of that union laetly applied to Government for assistance, and Mr. Redington, in his reply, sent them a debtor and creditor account of their monetary relations with Government, from which it appeared that within the last two years they had received 93,000l. of the public money in grants, and 40,000l. in loans, making 133,000l. spent in the union to make up the rates; while the ratepayers had only raised and expended about 4,000l., or, according to the Marquess of Sligo's account, 8,000l. Upon this subject, however, the Marquess of Sligo's answer was - "It is not we of the Westport union who have expended this money, but it is the Government who have insisted on spending it unproductively, and in the establishment of soup kitchens, the consequence of which is that we are not able to repay you your money, not able to maintain our poor, and are getting less able to maintain them every day." He (Mr. Scrope) thought that the noble Marquess had perfectly cleared himself by that statement. 26,000 of the population of the Westport union were at this moment wasting the food that they ate, and were prevented employing themselves by the system which the Government adopted. Now it was said by many that the system which he was advocating was a Louis-Blanc system; but, far from his proposal resembling the schemes of the French theorist, the only true parallel which could be afforded to the workshops in Paris was the case of the workhouses in Ireland, where they were cooping up ablebodied labourers, who wasted their energy in unprofitable toil, or lived in a state of sloth, idly toasting their shins by the fire. The system was demoralising the people. It was teaching them systematic idleness, instead of industry. He (Mr. P. Scrope) had the highest opinion of the industry and energy with which the Irish people worked at ordinary labour. No people under the sun worked better. But they were being physically and morally lowered and incapacitated for labour by the present workhouse system. It had, besides, a most grievous effect upon the health of the inmates. There were some places in which the mortality amounted to a fourth of the entire number of inmates in the course of each week, so that they would be completely emptied by death twelve times in the course of each year. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: These were all the deaths.] At all events the proportion of deaths was frightful and horrible. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had alleged that the present state of the Irish people was an abnormal one. If so, it required an abnormal remedy. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to be looking for the time when a total change of the proprietary of Ireland would take place. But when would it take place? How long were they to wait for it? He thought that something should be tried as soon as possible; and with the view of making a distinct proposition, he would move an Amendment - to add the following words to the Resolution of the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer:- "But that no appropriation of Monies taken from general Taxation be applied in aid of the Poor's-Rate of Irish Unions, except on condition that its repayment be secured by a lien on the ratable property of the Union." In conclusion, he should only say, that he did not pretend to point out the exact mode in which his proposition should be carried out. He only asked that in some way or another there should be a lien given upon the land for the repayment of loans, and that some means should be taken by which productive employment should be supplied to the Irish poor. The question having been put by the Chairman, MR. CHRISTOPHER said, that the House was again asked to vote relief to the Irish poor out of English means. He stood there as an English representative, and he said he was not prepared to concur in such a vote. When they considered that it was only a very short time ago that this country stept out of its usual course, and granted no less than four millions of money to the people of Ireland; when the House had agreed to grant in the way of loan an additional four millions to the people, a very small portion of which had been repaid, and, considering the state of the country, he ventured to predict that a very small portion would ever be restored to the Treasury; when he considered the present state of the labouring poor in this country; when he considered that the workhouses were rapidly filling with ablebodied paupers (he could speak from a knowledge of his own country); when the gaols were being filled with mendicants, and when, in a gaol in his own district, they were been obliged to fit up the chapel to form dormitories for the reception of those mendicants - how was it possible for the people of England to acquiesce in the present vote? It was laid down as a rule, when the four millions were granted, and when an additional four millions were given as a loan for the relief of the poor of Ireland, that in future Ireland should maintain its own poor. Was it not too much to ask the House now completely to reverse that principle, and to grant, out of the Consolidated Fund, a sum of money for the relief of the poor of Ireland? Although the grant was only 50,000l., apparently no very great grant, yet the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave the House to understand that he might possibly come forward and ask for more. They must now stand on this principle - was Ireland to maintain her own poor, or were the people of England to be called on annually to contribute to the relief of their necessities? He (Mr. Christopher) stood upon the original principle laid down, and he would vote no more money for relief to Ireland. He preferred upon the present occasion the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope), because it opposed the grant, although it did not express his opinions; but if any hon. Gentleman would stand boldly upon the broad principle of refusing any further grant to Ireland, he should have his (Mr. Christopher's) support. He ventured to predict, also, that we should have the right hon. Baronet detailing the same condition of the people in many of the southern parts of England. Anticipating such a state of things, was it right to ask the House to break through the principle which he understood was established when they granted a sum of money for the relief of Irish distress, and tax the overtaxed people of England? In reality the condition of the people of England was beset with greater difficulties than the Irish. The House should recollect that the people of Ireland paid no assessed taxes. They had no income-tax; whilst in some districts in England the poor-rates were heavier than they were in the most distressed parts of Ireland. He hoped the House would come to the resolution that the people of Ireland should in future be compelled to support their own poor. MR. F. FRENCH said that, notwithstanding the strong language of the hon. Member for Lincolnshire (Mr. Christopher), the Imperial Parliament would always be ready, if necessary, to make advances from time to time for the relief of the people of Ireland. He thanked the right hon. Baronet (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) for his sympathy with the western parts of Ireland; but begged to tell him that it was the Government's present specific, the poor-law, which was destroying the farmer, demoralising the peasantry, annihilating the property of the landlords, and which would not leave a vestige of the capital expended by the Imperial Parliament in that country in improvements. He regretted the right hon. Baronet had followed the bad example of attacking the landlords of Ireland, and that he should have quoted for that purpose the report of Mr. Inspector Lang, a gentleman who had only been stationed at the Bantry union a month, and had, therefore, very naturally mistaken the circumstances under which the population was suffering. He considered Mr. Lang's opinion as worthless; and he thought the House would concur with him, when they referred to page 21 of the report, and saw what was the opinion of the vice-guardians of this very same union, with which they had had a long and intimate acquaintance. They stated that the rate was willingly paid by those who could pay; and that the landlords in some cases allowed the entire rate, to enable the tenants to pay. Was this, then, a fit district to select for the reprobation of its landlords? With regard to the credit taken by the right hon. Baronet for the beneficial operation of the poor-law during times of distress, he denied its justice altogether. He did not say the law aggravated the present distress; but he denied that it had ever alleviated it. Distress had visited Ireland; but, after it had been surmounted, it had never left the people in the condition they now were. The law had destroyed all the self-reliance of the people. The poor-law had universally failed in every portion of the kingdom which required it; and it was only in districts which did not require it that it stood at all. In the north of Ireland - the most prosperous part of the country - the poor-rate was far above the average of England. In the south of England the poor-rate was 1s. 10«d.; the average of all England was only 1s. 6«d. [MR. CHRISTOPHER: I pay 5s. 8d. in the pound.] Yes, you may; but I am right as to the average. But in Ireland there is one very material consideration always overlooked in these comparisons: the value of the land has very much decreased since those rates were laid, in consequence of the failure of the potato crop, and difficulty of getting rents at all. If, then, he paid 5s. 8d. in the pound, it was upon an imaginary pound. The 5s.8d. was real, but the pound was altogether imaginary. With regard to the mortality in the workhouses, he would only, to place the melancholy fact in as striking a light as possible, state, that the deaths per week in the workhouses of Ireland equalled the mortality of London with its 2,000,000 of inhabitants. The following extract from the abovementioned report relative to the aid afforded to the distressed unions of the west of Ireland, relative to the Bantry union, and more particularly to the division of Kilcrohane in that union, states, that in the Kilcrohane division - "Tenants running away, having sold their effects, and many overholding possession, rents unpaid, lands waste, the gentry and people equally distressed, famine increasing, and the taxation of the poor-rate crushing the few who endeavour to adhere to the land - everything in such a state as will render the country a desert. "Within this year two rates have been struck in this division; one at 3s. 10d.; another (now in progress of collection) of 4s. 7d.; making 8s. 5d. in the pound, on a valuation based on a false foundation. It is true, a portion cannot be paid; for many have abandoned their lands in apprehension of utter ruin from its collection. A poor-rate was never calculated to meet a famine which arises from a total failure of the crop. The poor-rate falls upon the land, which, in such an event, produces nothing, and, by pressing on the resources of the ratepayers, whose sole support is derived from the soil, reduces all to one general state of pauperism. The land, waste and deteriorated, is again taxed: the landlord or immediate lessor, who receives no rent, is held responsible, and he suffers the cruel hardship of a double loss - the loss of rent, and being compelled to pay for what produces nothing. General ruin is impending; and, even supposing other proprietors to come in, they will labour under the same dire difficulties, as, by a rigid administration of a law to a famishing and populous country, you will ruin the inhabitants, extirpate the gentry, and desolate the land. "From constant observation on the condition of the parties seeking admission to the workhouse, from our intercourse with those within the House, and from our frequent attendance, with the relieving officers, at each of the electoral divisions, we are of opinion that the most extreme misery exists, as well in Kilcrohane as throughout the entire union, and that the condition of the whole people is immeasurably below what the most heartless would consider the lowest depths of wretchedness" This was a fair description, not only of Kilcrohane, but of the entire of the west of Ireland. The present poor-law had had the effect of making the people rely on eleemosynary aid. The hon. Member concluded by objecting to the proposition, as one of temporary relief, since the only hope for Ireland was to stimulate her people to rely solely on their own energies and not on British alms. SIR JOHN WALSH could not remember having been called upon to give a vote on any question which involved so many considerations of pain and difficulty as the subject now engaging the attention of the House. The right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had strongly appealed to the feelings of the House, and had drawn an unexaggerated picture of the appalling distress which was now prevailing throughout the greater portion of Ireland. It was important for the House to recollect that they were not dealing with small portions or obscure quarters of that country, but to remember that, out of the 131 unions into which Ireland was divided, twenty had been pronounced, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to be in a state of bankruptcy; that ten or eleven more of those unions were in a state bordering upon bankruptcy; and that there was reason to believe that nearly one-fourth of the population of the sister country were at this moment involved in absolute ruin. The question which the House was now dealing with was not a light one; and the proposition of the right hon. Baronet should receive the most deliberate consideration. The hon. Member for North Lincolnshire (Mr. Christopher) had truly stated that England herself was in no flourishing state, that she could not boast of much prosperity, that we had a deficient revenue, and that many classes of our population were themselves involved in deep distress and suffering, and had to struggle against great privations. He (Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred in those remarks, and therefore felt that it was the bounden duty of the House, at this present moment, to exercise the strictest vigilance over every sixpence of the public money. In addition to the natural difficulties which beset this question of relief to the people of Ireland, it should not be forgotten that political agitators in this country practised the most incendiary arts to prevent the rising of money, even for the most legitimate purposes, and for the most absolute and imperative necessities of the Government, and that therefore the course of Ministers was made one of extreme difficulty. But he believed that if that House wished to preserve that moral force with the country which should enable them to come to the assistance of the Government, when assistance was really required - to proffer that support which might be thought absolutely necessary for the support of the State - it was imperative upon them to scrutinise a proposition of the kind now before them, and determine whether it was a just one. In that spirit he would ask whether, with the experience of past grants to Ireland, fresh in the memory, there was a reasonable ground for hope that the present grant was either wise in itself, or would prove beneficial to the people of that country? The eight millions, so bountifully voted by the House of Commons two years ago, had excited little gratitude in the people of Ireland; but that was because the money had conferred no benefit. He believed that Ireland was worse off, in consequence of the application of that money, and that it would be found that by operation of that grant, society had been disorganised, and the habits of the population corrupted; that had been scattered over the country, which, because they were uncompleted, were rather an injury than a benefit; and that the countries had been saddled with a lasting incumbrance of debt. Had the proposition of the lamented Lord G. Bentinck been carried into effect, event to a small extent - had a portion of the money which the noble Lord opposite raised been applied to the purpose of emigration, and to the removals of the pressure of a surplus population - he (Sir J. Walsh) believed that Ireland would have been in a much better condition than that in which the House now found it. What results did the Chancellor of the Exchequer anticipate from this measure? Did he expect that some six months hence, after 50,000l., or four times 50,000l., had been applied to the alleviation of the Irish distress, that the condition of Ireland would be substantially improved? What was the probability of any substantial amelioration? The right hon. Baronet had described how, throughout large districts, landlords were ruined, how tenants had become bankrupt, how those who had formerly possessed or occupied land were now the recipients of relief. He had dwelt upon the numbers who had emigrated, and had referred to lands which were deprived even of their ordinary cultivation. Under these circumstances, and bearing in mind what this country had already done in the shape of relief to the people of Ireland, how could the House anticipate that the causes of Irish distress would be permanently removed? He begged earnestly to impress upon the attention of the House the communication to the Relief Commissioners from the guardians of the Bantry union. The state of things described in that communication was not confined to that district, but might be said to apply to the greater part of Ireland. Would not the House, by granting this sum, be making a fixed charge upon the resources of the country? and was there any hope that, by the means the House was asked to adopt, we should revive the industry of Ireland, and develop those resources in that country which were now either paralysed or lying dormant? The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) had failed to show the possibility, under the pressure of this poor-law, of developing the resources of the country. The resources of Ireland, in fact, were extinguished under this poor-law. How did Ireland at present stand with respect to that law? It was curious to observe, that throughout that country at this moment there were two poor-laws in operation. There was the poor-law of 1838, and the poor-law of 1847. It was a fault of the Legislature, that, adhering, as it appeared to do, to the provisions of the first law of 1838 as the groundwork of its legislation, not venturing to repeal or abrogate that law, it introduced by the law of 1847 a power virtually to set that of 1838 entirely aside, and that it vested the initiative in the hands and the arbitrary power of a body of commissioners who were deputed to carry into effect the law of applying the system of outdoor relief to certain unions. What had been the result of this system? The result had been exhibited in the returns which formed part of the appendix in the report - that in 23 unions of Ulster no outdoor relief was at present required. Seven unions in Munster were excepted from outdoor relief, and three in Leinster. Outdoor relief was established throughout Connaught. In a great portion of many of the provinces the system had obtained to a very limited extent. It was very important, in watching the working of this poor-law, to ascertain what effects it had produced where it had been in full operation. The poor-law of 1847 had only been pushed to its full extent - it had only bourne its legitimate fruits in those provinces of Connaught and parts of Munster in which it was almost in universal operation. That was the answer to those Gentlemen who were so fond of drawing general averages, and then saying that the poor-rates in Ireland did not exceed those in force in England. To understand the Irish Poor Law properly, Ireland must be divided into two parts, and we must watch the separate effect of each of these two systems of poor-law upon those parts of the country respectively under their operation. He (Sir J. Walsh) would repeat what had fallen from the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French), that the valuation was taken upon what was the value of the property previous to the imposition of this poor-rate - previous to the failure of the potato crop - previous to the immense destruction of the value of all property which had followed since these events - and that, in point of fact, the valuation, which was in the first place a moderate valuation, and amounted to the rent of the farms, exceeded it now two-fold. The great evil to be guarded against in any system of poor-laws, was an undue pressure upon industry and enterprise. He felt compelled to designate the proposal of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a miserable attempt to palliate a great evil; and if the right hon. Gentleman thought he could meet the march of this destructive desease of pauperism by a grant of 50,000l., he was much mistaken. If the House once entered upon the path proposed, they would be compelled to take further steps in the same direction. If once they went the length of saying that they would support the destitution of Ireland, the whole pauper population of that country would be thrown upon the Imperial Treasury. He should like to hear from the Government whether, in the event of this grant being sanctioned by the House as a temporary expedient, they intended to make it a permanent source of relief? He should certainly like to know their general intentions with respect to these poor-laws. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland (Sir W. Somerville) had the other night moved for a Committee; and he (Sir J. Walsh) must confess that he could not remember any Motion of similar importance to have introduced in so meagre a shape, or with so little information bearing upon it. The right hon. Gentleman seemed merely to say, "You asked us for a Committee last year, which we refused; if we grant it this Session we will keep it in our own hands." At all events, the House well knew of what pliable materials Committees upstairs were made, and how ready they were to shelve any measure which the Government might not like to bring to light. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department had certainly been a little more explicit, and had, in answer to the questions of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford), afforded some index to the views of the Government. He (Sir J. Walsh) understood the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) to have said that the Government intended to adhere to the main provisions of the law as it at present existed, and to have intimated that, although as absolute perfection could not be expected in any system of poor-laws, the ingenuity of the Committee upstairs might possibly suggest some improvements in the details of the law as it at present stood, yet that in all its leading provisions the present law was to be adhered to, and maintained by the Government. Now, he (Sir J. Walsh) was convinced that unless great modifications were introduced into the working of the poor-law, and unless it was subjected to a thorough revision, to be approached by that House under the spirit and deep persuasion that it had committed great mistakes, and was called upon, in the first place, to reconstruct the remedial measure brought in two years ago, the law as it at present stood would pauperise the whole of the country. He felt persuaded that the pressure on the springs of industry, and the confiscation and destruction of property that now went on, were such that no reasonable hope could be entertained of any improvement in the state of Ireland whilst the present state of the law was allowed to continue. The right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to claim that some sort of progress towards a better state of things had been attained, because a considerable amount of devastation had occurred at some of these unions. He appeared to argue on the principle that matters must first come to their worst before they can grow any better. Having established, as he (Sir J. Walsh) thought, very clearly that matters in many unions had got as nearly to their worst as they could be, the right hon. Gentleman seemed to draw the inference that they must therefore be approaching to something very like an improvement. Now, he confessed he could not comprehend the force of the right hon. Baronet's reasoning; nor could he either understand by what process of argument the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) arrived at the conclusion that if they threw an amount of rating on the waste lands, and if that rating remained as a charge on these lands, supposing any cultivator to be enterprising enough to bring them agClose