Report from the Select Committee on Colonisation.
YEAR VOLUME CMD. REF QQ. BRIEF TITLE 1889 X (274) 987-999 Report from Select 1004-1015 Committee on 1036-1037 Colonisation. 1197-1201 1296-1301 1326-1340 1342-1344 1355-1359 R E P O R T FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON C O L O N I S A T I O N ; TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, M I N U T E S O F E V I D E N C E, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 23 July 1889. L O N D O N: PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON; AND Published by EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding-street, London, E.C., and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster, S.W.; ADAM and CHARLES BLACK, North Bridge, Edinburgh; and HODGES, FIGGIS, and Co., 104, Grafton-street, Dublin. Sir ROBERT G.W. HERBERT, K.C.B, called in ; and Examined. Chairman. 987. YOU are Under Secretary for the Colonies?- Yes. 988. And you are prepared, I believe, to give the Committee some evidence as to the proposals which have been made to the Colonial Office in connection with State-aided emigration ?- Yes. A great part of the more recent ones are contained in three Parliamentary Papers which the Committee no doubt have seen; they are Command Papers, Nos. 4751 and 5631, and House of Common Paper, No. 106. There are two other important schemes which have never been laid before Parliament of which I have the particulars in print, namely, a proposal by Sir Alexander Galt, the late High Commissioner for Canada, and by Mr., now Sir George Stephen, the President of the Canadian Pacific Railway. Those schemes which were very important ones received a great deal of consideration, so that I have ventured to bring them although they are not amongst the Parliamentary Papers. 989. How far back do those Papers go?- The Papers I have mentioned go back to about the year 1883; previously to that we have nothing to produce. There were a large number of suggestions in the anterior years which came to nothing, and the records of them, I believe, are not even in existence at the present time; they are certainly not deserving of the attention of the Committee. I do not think we could procure the particulars, even if the Committee cared to go into the proposals. Sir John Colomb. 990. Was not there a Despatch of the Government of Canada signed by the Marquis of Lorne in the month of October 1880, making a definite proposal to the Imperial Government for a great colonisation scheme to remove congestion in Ireland?- I should think that was Sir George Stephen's scheme. Chairman. 991. But Sir George Stephen's scheme was the scheme of 1883, was it not?- Yes. Sir John Colomb. 992. I am speaking of the scheme of 1880, when Lord Kimberley was at the Colonial Office; it is published as a Parliamentary Paper?- I will take a note of it. Chairman. 993. Will you tell the Committee briefly what were the main features of Sir Alexander Galt's scheme?- It was a scheme for working with the Poor Law unions. His proposal was that the Unions should be able to send out emigrants under the control and supervision of the Local Government Board. The scheme had reference to Irish emigration principally to Canada; but I think his idea was that it might be extended to English emigration, if thought desirable; then there was a colonisation part of it. His estimate was that families capable of entering upon farming might be placed upon land in Canada for about 20l. per head; and that labourers and mechanics might be absorbed into the country in Canada, to work for wages at a cost to those who sent them out of, say, 8l. per head. 994. Was there any idea of repayment?- Yes. With regard to the colonisation part of it, it was proposed that the board of management should take security upon the farms upon which the emigrants were settled, for the repayment of the advances at six per cent interest; and the proposal with regard to emigrants who were to work for labour was that they should repay their passage money in one or more years after their arrival in Canada, with interest. The basis of the scheme was that the Treasury should advance to the unions such sums as might be required to carry out the scheme on the security of the Poor Law rate for 10 years, equal to 4 per cent upon the advance that might have been made, and then to be terminable. And Sir Alexander Galt's estimate was that in the course of this scheme the union would be paying 16s. per annum for 10 years on 20l., or 8l. in all, on account of each person emigrated, which would be set against the present annual charge, which he considered was about 10l. per head for the maintenance of the individuals in receipt of parochial relief. Sir Alexander Galt, in the details of the scheme, which I suppose you will have printed, says that "in the case of those occupying land the mortgage would be ample security for the advances, and the percentage of loss would be small." Then he went on to say that "with mechanics and labourers the risk of loss by evasion or inability to pay would be considerable. But the actual cost of removal to and settlement in the colony would not be one- half as large as in the former class." So that, of course, Sir Alexander Galt, who is a man of very great shrewdness and ability, was perfectly well aware that the emigrant labourer is not at all likely to repay anything that is advanced to him to send him to a colony; but, on the other hand, he thought that the security to be taken upon the land upon which colonisation would be started was sufficiently good to justify that part of the scheme. 995. In point of fact, the risk of losing the money advanced to the individual emigrant is one which attends all schemes for individual emigration?- Yes; it is the opinion of the Colonial Office, and I think it is the opinion of all the Colonial Governments also, that the individual who has been assisted to go out from this country because he is in great need does not feel any moral obligation to repay the advances made to him, and no legal mode of recovering them can be devised which the Colonial Governments will assist us to make operative. 996. As far as your judgement goes, no proposition has ever been made to the Colonial Office in connection with individual emigration which gave any security worth having for the repayment of the advances made to individual emigrants?- That is so. At the same time it has been the opinion of the Colonial Office that in times of great congestion, and when employment has been very difficult to obtain in this country, it would, upon the footing on which Sir Alexander Galt places it in that memorandum, be expedient to assist them to emigrate, although one entertained no expectation that they would repay the advances. 997. But, as a matter of fact, is not the door closed in Canada against immigrants who are emigrated out of the rates?- They decline to receive at present, and so it is in the Australian colonies. Sir Alexander Galt, I should say, did not propound that scheme in his capacity of High Commissioner for Canada, but as an individual; it was entirely on his personal responsibility. 998. As a matter of fact, does not it seem pretty clear from one of the Parliamentary Papers to which you have alluded, Paper [c.4751], that that is the opinion of the Canadian Government; that in consequence of the limited population in Canada it is not capable of receiving an unlimited number of artizans and labourers? -Yes. 999. And that as far as individual emigration is concerned, that ought to be left entirely to the voluntary system, and that, whether it be provided for out of the rates or in any other manner, it is likely that great difficulty and distress would arise by anything like indiscriminate emigration of individuals?- Yes; we believe that that was at that time and is to-day the opinion of the Dominion Government; it also would be the opinion of the Australian Governments. 1004. The next scheme you spoke of was a scheme suggested by Sir George Stephen?- Yes, by Sir George Stephen, who was then Mr. Stephen. He did not propose it on behalf of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, but he undertook to make the offer on the part of the North Western Land Company of Canada. 1005. What was the date of that?- That was also in 1883. It had reference to emigration from Ireland. His proposal was that the Treasury should advance 1,000,000l. to the North Western Land Company of Canada, and that by the expenditure of that 1,000,000l. some 10,000 families, amounting in the whole to some 50,000 people, might be taken out to Canada; that the company should give 160 acres of land with a house, a cow, and agricultural implements, seeds, and everything to start the colonisation, to each family, and that the loan should run for 10 years without any interest, the company taking all risks and responsibility for recovering from the colonisers and repaying the loan. The company would take a lien to the amount of 100l. on each block of 160 acres, which would be given to the settler at 6 per cent., and the settler might acquire the land by the payment of that 100l. with interest, at any time during his tenure of it. He held that the removal of each family would cost the Government no more than the interest on 100l. for 10 years; that is 2l. 10s. a year, or 25l. over the 10 years. This scheme received a great deal of consideration from the Government; it was in Lord Derby's time. I produce the scheme, which, as I say, was much considered, but the proposal fell through because the Treasury thought it necessary to stipulate that the Dominion Government should make itself responsible for recovering the advances from the settlers, both principal and interest, and the Dominion Government declined to do that. They said they would readily give the land required, but they had insuperable objections to the Government becoming directly or indirectly the creditor of the settlers. They thought that if they did undertake to recover those advances there would be a great deal of political influence used by settlers to relieve them from making the repayment, and that in fact the company would be more likely to be able to put effective pressure upon the settlers than the Government, for political reasons, would be able to do. The Colonial Office recommended the scheme strongly, because it was felt that it could hardly fail to result in the emigration of much more than 50,000 people. Though the whole amount might not be repaid, a greater number than 50,000 could have been taken out of Ireland by it. 1006. It was proposed that there should be a total loss of interest for 10 years?- Yes. 1007. Was not one essential feature of the scheme that the money was to be found out of the Irish Church Fund?- There was no such stipulation or suggestion of the promoter of the scheme; but the Government thought that if the loans were made they might be made from the Church Fund, the Consolidated Fund only being chargeable in the event of the Church Fund being proved to be insufficient?- That is a correct statement of the way in which it was put. 1009. One of the features which was insisted upon at the time also, I think, was that the emigrants under that arrangement should be from the congested districts only and in entire families?- Yes. 1010. And that in each case the Irish Government should be absolutely satisfied that the holding of the emigrating family would be at once consolidated with a neighbouring holding under a satisfactory arrangement with the landlord?- Yes. 1011. But a strong objection was entertained by the Government to any arrangement being made between the Imperial Government and a private company?- Yes. 1012. As the first condition under which the matter was to be considered, was not there a requirement of a guarantee by the Canadian Government which fell through, and that falling through the other details of the scheme were not proceeded with any further?- They were not proceeded with any further in the absence of an undertaking from the Dominion Government. 1013. Has not that been a feature common to all proposals which the Government have even provisionally entertained, that there must be a guarantee for the return of the money by the Government of the colony to which the emigrants went?- Yes; I am not aware of any scheme having been entertained, because of the impracticability of procuring from the Colonial Governments any such assurance. 1014. And, as a matter of fact, the Government have never been able to obtain the promise of any guarantee of the kind from any Colonial Government?- No; the Colonial Governments have always said that they would be liberal in their grants of land, that they would assist in every sort of way, and would afford accomodation to the emigrants on landing, but that they would not assume the position of guarantors. 1015. They declined, in point of fact, to take up the position of landlords?- That is so. 1036. Then there was a scheme proposed by Mr. Cracknell, was there not?- Yes, that was a scheme for the relief of the Poor Law Unions. It is not very much elaborated; it was a general proposal that the law should be altered as far as it might be necessary, to enable the Poor Law Unions to devote part of their funds to the emigration of suitable persons. 1037. I would ask you upon that point, is it not practically the case that the colonies which are available for emigration purposes as a rule decline to accept immigrants who have been assisted from the Poor Law?- Yes, they entertain the very strongest objection to them. Most of them would even decline to enquire into the antecedents of those who had received Poor Law relief; they would not take the trouble to ascertain whether it was accidental, or casual, or habitual pauperism. They would have nothing to do with it. In fact, their feeling with regard to paupers is nearly as keen as with reference to the introduction of convicts into the colonies. Tuesday, 2nd July 1889. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sir George Baden Powell. Mr. Rankin. Mr. Campbell-Bannerman. Mr. Rathbone. Sir John Colomb. Mr. William Redmond. Sir James Fergusson. Mr. Ritchie. Mr. Gill. Mr. Sellar. Mr. J.M. Maclean. Mr. Wodehouse. Colonel Malcolm. Mr. Munro-Ferguson. Mr. Osborne Morgan. THE RIGHT HONOURABLE CHARLES T. RITCHIE, IN THE CHAIR. SIR ROBERT G.W. HERBERT, K.C.B., called in; and further Examined. Chairman. 1197. Have you any other Papers to put in? - I have a Despatch from the Marquis of Lorne, the Governor General of Canada in 1880 (Command Paper, C.2835 of 1881); that is the Paper which I promised to bring up when I came again before the Committee. It is based upon a proposal by Sir Alexander Galt, who was at that time High Commissioner of Canada, and who was the author of another scheme which I mentioned when I was last before the Committee. The Canadian Government proposed to Her Majesty's Government that this country should advance money at a low rate of interest by a commission or association for the purpose of transporting families from Ireland to Winnipeg. He estimated that the cost of the transport of a family to Winnipeg might be 40l.; that the cost of building a house, ploughing the land, providing seed and getting the land ready for the first crop, would be from 35l. to 40l. He suggested that the Canadian Government should give a free grant of 160 acres to each family with the pre-emption of a further 160 acres adjacent to the first grant; and he proposed that the money advanced should be secured as a first charge upon the land, and should be repaid by instalments by the settlers with interest. It was not further developed in detail. The despatch was sent to Dublin Castle for the consideration of the Irish Government; but we have no record in the Colonial Office as to whether it received consideration, and apparently no action was taken in the matter. 1198. What is the date of that?- Ninth November 1880. 1199. Then do I understand that the proposal was that an advance of 80l. should be made?- Yes, 80l. per family; but the details of the mode in which it should be secured were not gone into. 1200. I presume there was no suggestion of any Canadian guarantee for the repayment?- No. 1201. As far as you know, no action was taken on the proposal?- No action at all, I believe. Sir John Colomb. 1296. Then there was a despatch which you produced, which you say was sent directly from the Colonial Office to the Irish Government?- Yes. 1297. Was it immediately sent?- Yes, almost immediately, I think. It was sent within a week or two of the time. 1298. And you have received no communication from them upon the subject?- No. 1299. Did you receive any communications from the Irish Government with reference to the carrying out of the State-aided emigration, a considerable proportion of which was directed to Canada, in 1883-84? -No; the correspondence was conducted, I think, between the High Commissioner for Canada and the Irish Office; I think it did not pass through the Colonial Office. 1300. You are aware, I presume, that a very considerable number of families were sent to Canada from different parts of Ireland under that scheme?- I am aware of that. 1301. Have you any communication from the Government of Canada calling attention to any effect of that emigration?- I think none. I have no recollection of any. Mr. William Redmond. 1326. May I ask to what you attribute the fact that do very large a proportion of those people who do emigrate go to the United States? -I think they have more communication with them; they have more friends there; they receive more assistance from the States. Their friends, perhaps, have acquired more means, having been longer established, so as to be better able to assist them. I think that is the explanation of it. 1327. Are there any statistics at the Information Office, or at any other office, that you know of, which would show how great a proportion of those people who can emigrate at their own resources go to the United States from England, Ireland, and Scotland?- Yes; I think the monthly statistics which are published by the Board of Trade would show you practically the proportion of persons who go to the United States and Canada respectively. It may be said in most cases they pay their own passage with assistance, particularly in the case of Ireland, from their friends in the country to which they go. 1328. But it is the fact, is it not, that even in England, a very large proportion of those people who are in a position to emigrate do go to the United States of America?- Yes. 1329. And you attribute that to the fact that they have friends there already?- Yes, I do not consider that they have any other reason for their predilection. 1330. But with regard to paupers, I have no doubt you have a knowledge of the fact that from time to time paupers have been sent back from the United States?- Yes, certainly; the veto is very stiff against them now. 1331. It is the fact, is it not, that a great deal of the misery arises from the fact of people emigrating to the cities and remaining in the cities in America?- Yes. 1332. I gather from your remarks that in your opinion the colonies, especially the Australian colonies offer a better field for emigration than the United States? -Yes, for emigrants who have shown the requisite energy to get the money into their pockets, and who can find their own way out; but I should say that I believe the Australian colonies offer a very poor field for the pauper class of people who linger about the towns. 1333. In your opinion would the Australian colonies afford the best field for colonisation?-I would hardly say that. 1334. Is it not the fact that there is a great demand in some of the Australian colonies for skilled labour?-There is always a great demand in Australia for skilled labour. The mechanics and artisans get very high wages. 1335. You would know that some time ago last year or the year before, there were some labour delegates over here from the Australian colonies, principally New South Wales, who most energetically declared that there was no demand for labour out there at all?-Yes; they were very anxious to prevent the rates of wages from being lowered by a large influx of competing skilled labour. 1336. You do not think they represented the state of affairs to advantage?-I do not think so. Mr. Gill. 1337. Can you account for the fact that there is a continuous stream of emigration over the border from Canada into the States?-I cannot explain that. I am informed that it does exist, but I know some Canadian authorities consider there is almost an equal stream of immigration the other way; that they come and go very frequently, and that is not any permanent loss to Canada; but I cannot give you any figures myself upon the point. 1338. Now with regard to emigrants of the pauper class, for whom you say that the Australian colonies would not afford at all a good field, what region do you consider would be a good field for them to emigrate to?- I think their best chance would be a colonisation settlement where the conditions would be very favourable, and where inferior labour would be able to do as well as good labour would in a good colony, 1339. Which of the colonies would afford such a field as that?- I would say it must depend entirely upon the particular locality in any colony. I should think Canada would be preferable to any other. 1340. Is that because of the great number of towns there?- I think so; because the land would more steadily improve in a Canadian settlement. Mr. CHARLES P. LUCAS, called in; and examined. Chairman. 1342. You are an official of the Colonial Office?- Yes. 1343. In addition to that I believe you are Secretary to the Emigrants' Information Office? -The Secretary of State is nominally the chairman of our managing committee, but practically I always take the chair; so that I suppose I ought to describe myself as chairman of it. 1344. What was the date of the opening of this office?-It was opened on the 11th of October 1886; the final arrangements for it were made when Lord Granville and Mr. Osbourne Morgan were at the Colonial Office; they were completed by Mr. Stanhope, and the office was opened in October 1886. 1355. Have you any branch office in Ireland, or is it confided altogether to London?-That is rather our difficulty. I think we want some branch offices. 1356. Then I take it that you have no office in Ireland?-No. 1357. Do you give to people desiring to emigrate from Ireland the same information as you are able to give to those desiring to emigrate from England?-We have no office there for personal inquiry. 1358. Do you receive inquiries from Ireland? -Yes, a certain number; during the quarter just ended, the 30th June, out of the total number of letters that we received, about four per cent. came from Ireland; that was for that quarter only; last quarter was a very slack quarter, but there are letters of inquiry from Ireland. 1359. You are strongly under the impression, looking to the large emigration which takes place from Ireland, that there ought to be some mode by which the information which you get should be available personally in Ireland?- Yes, I think so; and not in Ireland only, but in the big provincial towns also, and I have been personally looking forward to the time when there will be branches of the Imperial Institute which will be available for the diffusing of that information. I have here some account of we diffuse our information now. We make use of the post offices in the first instance. We send to a large number of workmen's clubs, and to the free public libraries. In England we have offered our circulars to all the country clergy, but only a very small proportion, about 1,800, I think in all, have expressed a wish to have them quarterly, for the use of their clubs and institutes.Close