MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SELECT COMMITTEE Mr.
If.
N.
Hancock, LL.D.
28 April 1876.
Chairman—continued.
to have the same done, but they mixed up a dis¬ tinct question which got their Bill overthrown ; that is to say, they tried to extend the boundary of Waterford into the County of Waterford, be¬ sides transferring the powers of the city grand jury, and their Bill was thrown out in the Lords, although it had passed the House of Commons in 1875.
It was a Bill to abolish the fiscal power of the city grand jury of Waterford, and to give it to the*town council.
They proposed to enlarge the borough so as to take in the whole of the poor law electoral division of Waterford, and so far as I recollect, it was the county opposition that overthrew their Bill.
51.
But as to the other counties of cities, what is the state of things ?—They
still have a divided authority.
52.
Can they obtain the sole authority by a Provisional Order?—No,
Carrickfergus, for in¬ stance, could not.
Waterford could not have done so by a Provisional Order, and so they went for a Bill.
The Irish Local Government Act of 1871 is very narrowly worded, it is not worded so as to contemplate the idea of the county of a city; the wording applies to a county at large only.
I should have mentioned before, the city of Deny has a town council, which has got separated from the county for road purposes.
53.
In all those counties of cities it is the city grand jury that w-ould have the divided authority?
—Yes.
54.
In those towns that are not counties of cities, it is the county grand jury?—Yes,
for in¬ stance, in Clonmel it is the county grand jury.
55.
Is the authority over the streets divided with the county grand juries in any other kind of urban sanitary authority ?
— In Carlow it is divided with two county authorities, a part of the town being in Carlow, and a part in Queen's County.
In Carrick-on-Suir it is divided with Tipperary and Waterford.
In Lisburn, with Antrim and Down.
In New Ross, with Wexford and Kilkenny.
In Athlone, with West Meath and Roscommon.
In all the other urban sanitary authorities the authority is divided with one county only.
56.
You have mentioned the control of the roads as the principal object for which local Acts have been obtained for towns since 1854; were there any other objects contemplated by those Acts?—One
other object was water, another was markets, and another was borrowing poweis.
Those were the principal objects.
57.
Have the town authorities generally the control over the markets and fairs ?-—They
have the^ control over the markets only to a very limited extent.
I think that there are only about 12 that have any substantial income fiom their interest in the markets.
58 Has that subject been at all inquired into with a view to legislation?—Yes,
with regard to the question of the fairs and markets there was a Select Committee of the House of Commons in 1826, on that subject, and there was another in 1830; and legislation was attempted in 1830, but it failed, and the result of that was an insurrec¬ tion over one half of Ireland, and the tolls were to a rery large extent overthrown.
That is described in the Report of the Fairs and Markets Commission of 1853, in which they represent the matter to be in a very unsatisfactory state.
They say, " The agtation commenced in the counties of Moath, Dublin, King's and Queen's
Chiirman—continued.
Counties, and soon spread to other parts of the country.
If a straight line be drawn down the centre of Ireland from the city of Londonderry to the town of Youghal, it will be found that, with a few exceptions on the east side of the line, toll has been entirely abolished, while on the west side of the line, with also a few exceptional cases toll is still exacted."
In that overthrow of the markets the old system of toll v\as done up, and as regards the market authority, it was destroyed altogether.
The object of modem legislation has been to restore the market authority within certain limits, but; the matter is still in a very unsatisfactory state.
59.
With regard to borrowing powers, do you think that anything could be done to improve the present system of borrowing powers as exer¬ cised by town authorities ?—Yes
; the Sanitary Code of 1875 has been passed for England last Session, and has very simple borrowing powers, and the London Metropolitan Board have still better borrowing powers.
60.
Will you tell the Committee what the existing system in Ireland is ?—The
existing system is very complicated.
The towns are not satisfied with any of the borrowing powers under the general statutes, because where they can they always go for special provisions, and they would not do that if the existing general system was satisfactory.
61.
What is the general system?—It
limits the rating and creates a doubt as to the security.
Then the borrowing is not in the first instance sanctioned by the Local Government Board; and then there is a certain amount of risk and doubt about the security.
Then the object of all legislation is to get rid of that, and make the security perfect.
In England they get the sanction of the Local Government Board in the first instance under the Ace of 1875, to make the loan perfectly secure.
62.
Under what Act do they borrow in Ire¬ land generally ?—Under
each different Act, according to the objects of the loan.
There is no satisfactory general provision in Ireland.
63.
But in the case of a town under one of those general Acts to which you have referred, under which Act would the town borrow ?—The
Act of 1854 gives power to borrow, but that is by reference, under the Act of 1847.
The bor¬ rowing powers in the Act of 1854 are under the mortgaging clauses of the Commissioners' Clauses Act of 1847.
Mr.
Butt.
64.
That is an English Act, is it not?—Bui
it is incorporated in the Irish Act.
The position of the whole law is this : instead of borrowing under the latest Act of 1875, or as the Metropolitan Board under their Act of 1869, we are still bor¬ rowing under the old Act of 1847, which has been superseded in England on account of not being the best way of doing the business.
Chairman.
60.
Do you see any difficulty in extending such powers to Ireland ?—No.
I recommended that in my repoits for 3 871, p.
24, and for 1872, p.
15, and also in a paper which I read at the Dublin Statistical Society.
I showed how the London Metropolitan Board's plan of borrow¬ ing might be extended to Ireland.
It is on the idea of applying the system of debenture stock, which lately ha s * been uo successful
in
