Assisted Emigration - Observations.

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Document ID 9605054
Date 09-08-1880
Document Type Hansard
Archive Queen's University, Belfast
Citation Assisted Emigration - Observations.;Hansard Parliamentary Debates, Series III, Vol. 255, 1880, Cols.605-18; CMSIED 9605054
23168
    DISTRESS (IRELAND) - ASSISTED
    EMIGRATION. - OBSERVATIONS.

  The Earl of DUNRAVEN, in rising
to call the attention of Her Majesty's
Government to the subject of assisting
emigration from certain districts in Ireland,
said, although the matter had engaged
their Lordship's attention incidentally
once or twice in discussion on other
matters, he thought the state of things
in Ireland at the present moment was of
such a character as to excuse him for
bringing this important subject before
them again. He did not think it was
necessary to waste any time in attempting
to prove that it was a fact that certain
districts in Ireland were over-populated
at present, and that there were
only two alternatives for that state of
things - removal of a portion of the surplus
population to other parts of Ireland,
or its emigration to other countries. As
regarded the first, there was no possibility
of migration from one part of Ireland
to another, as it was not likely
that any manufactures would spring up
which would find employment for the
population. He should, therefore, assume
that the only practical way of relieving
the over-populated districts was
by emigration. If that was the case, it
appeared to him, seeing that neither the
people themselves nor their landlords
could bear the whole expense of such a
remedy, that on an exceptional occasion
of this kind, when the people were suffering
from exceptional distress, it came
quite within the province of the Government
to take the matter up. To make
emigration as easy as possible, it was
obvious that facilities should be afforded
to whole families to emigrate, because it
was hard enough for a man to give up
the plot of ground to which for his whole
life he had been attached; but it was
harder still to leave his wife and family
behind, until in another country he
could earn money sufficient to send for
them. Besides, it was not well, in the
interests of the country, to have the
bread-winners - the bone and sinew - go
out of it, while the old and the women
and children were left behind. Therefore,
he thought that, in a case of this
kind, every facility ought to be afforded
to enable not only able-bodied men, but
to enable fathers of families to emigrate
with their wives and children. He
thought, also that emigration should, if
possible, be directed to the British Colonies
which required to be populated,
rather than anywhere out of the Empire.
If there were any strength to be obtained
by increase of population, it was
only right that our Colonies should have
it, and not other nations. He further
contended that when the emigration
was to our Colonies the emigrants
were generally successful, and a source
of strength both to the Colonies and to the
Empire. There was also another advantage
- namely, that the people who went
to the Colonies became thoroughly
well-disposed towards British rule; whereas
experience proved that when they went
to the United States, they frequently
retained great animosity towards this
country. All other things being equal, he
did not wish to enter into the question of
the merits of one particular Colony over
another; but he thought it was obvious
that the one which was nearest and
could be reached cheapest, was the one
which should be taken, if any system of
State assistance of emigration, was
adopted. The nearest of our Colonies
was Canada, and Canada afforded a
great many advantages. In many parts
there was a large quantity of prairie
land that required no clearing whatever,
besides which the Dominion itself,
would advance money to the emigrants,
on the security of the land for tools and
provisions for the first year. Terms
were offered by the Canadian Government
which were of a most liberal description.
The Canadian Government
gave to the head of a family a homestead
grant of 160 acres, which they
were allowed to choose where they
liked; and at the end of three years, a
Government Inspector looked over the
land, and if the emigrant had made any
improvement on it, if he had built himself
a house and broken up the land,
showing that he was a bona fide settler,
the emigrant became absolutely entitled
to the 160 acres, and at the same time
had a prescriptive right to purchase another
adjoining lot of 160 acres at
10s. per acre. Besides that, the Canadian
Government had most excellent
arrangements. They had a gentleman
over here to take charge of
emigrants, and they had a gentleman at
Quebec to receive them and forward
them to the land they were to occupy;
so that the emigrant was conducted to
the spot, and chose himself the spot
where he wished to live. Prairie land
was offered to the emigrants, and there
was such a demand for labour in Canada
at remunerative wages that the emigrants
would want no help after a short time.
The objections entertained to emigration
by the Roman Catholic clergy, on the
score of the evil influences under which
the emigrants too often fell on being
landed in New York, would vanish if the
emigrants went to Canada. He thought
nothing could be more liberal than the
conduct of the Canadian Government,
who, in fact, did everything but advance
the money to the emigrants to go out
with. It might be said that if the
Canadian Government offered such advantages,
what was the object of troubling
this Parliament about it? But he
confessed it appeared to him that the
British Parliament ought to offer some
assistance also. Many of the landlords
would now be very glad to assist their
tenants to emigrate, if they could, but
they had not the means. In some cases
the landlords might, no doubt, be unwilling
to assist; and, in such cases,
assistance should be given by the State.
He hoped that Her Majesty's Government
might be able to see their way towards
doing something, and he should
like to see them appropriate a sufficient
sum of money to enable some emigration
with the Canadian Government.
If the Government were not prepared to
do that, he hoped they would advance
money to the owners of lands and Boards
of Guardians to assist in emigration,
taking the security of the land in Canada
for the re-payment of the loans. If
they were not able to do that, it might
be advanced through the Irish Boards of
Guardians, on the same terms as advances
were now made for the drainage
of land. He knew that, inasmuch as
emigration ought to be conducted in the
spring, it would be too late for an extensive
emigration that year; and therefore,
he did not ask Her Majesty's Government
to make any definite reply at
present; but he did hope that between
this and next year they would give an
attentive and favourable consideration
to the subject
  Viscount MONCK said,...Within the last
week his noble Friend (the Earl of Dunraven)
and himself had an interview with Sir John
Macdonald, the Prime Minister of Canada,
and their conversation with that gentleman
enabled them to see what great advantages
would follow from emigration to that
Colony. Within the last few years, by
the union of the Provinces of North
America, the Canadians obtained an
almost unlimited tract of fertile land in
the North-West of America. There was
room on it for almost any number of
people. It would be almost impossible
to fill it up. The Canadian Government
had taken this matter in hand, and the
encouragement they gave to emigrants
seemed to be dictated by prudence and
judgment. They gave to an emigrant
160 acres of good prairie land which
required nothing but the plough. They
had organised a system of receiving
emigrants, conducting them through the
country, and guiding them in the choice
of allotments. In fact, they took care
of the emigrants in every way. If the
British Government made advances to
Irish emigrants on the security of their
allotments, the Canadian Government
would undertake to see to the collection
of the re-payments and the transmission
of the money to this country. He hoped
that Her Majesty's Government would
consider the matter, and that if by that
time they were not prepared with a plan,
his noble Friend (the Earl of Dunraven)
would bring forward a Motion on the
subject, calling for a Select Committee
to inquire into it. In 1847 and 1848,
what were called natural causes were
allowed to operate, and most Irishmen
would agree that very few of the then
existing population were benefited by
those natural causes. A great number
of landowners were ruined, many among
the farmers and the middle classes were
evicted, and a vast number of people
died. Natural causes operated unhappily
for the people, but to the advantage of
Ireland. It was impossible to read the
oft-quoted pamphlet of Mr. Tuke, without
being struck, on the one hand, with
the great misery existing in some of
the places he had visited; and, on the
other hand, with the comparative
improvement in the average condition of
the population as compared with 1847
and 1848. That was the result of the
operation of natural causes; but,
unfortunately 2,000,000 of people had
disappeared somehow, and in a way far
from creditable to our administration.
He trusted his noble Friend the Secretary
of State for the Colonies would not
give an absolutely negative answer to
the proposal, but would keep his mind
open on the subject.
  Lord STANLEY of ALDERLEY
trusted that the Government would not
give a direct negative to the appeal
made to them, but would, at least, take
the matter into consideration, and that
his noble Friend the Secretary of State
for the Colonies would have some
conversation on the subject of assisting
emigration with the Canadian Minister
who was now in this country. It had
recently been stated that the railway to
Manitoba was already completed to a
considerable distance west of the settled
parts of Canada, and there would be
plenty of room along this line for
emigrants. He thought that a good deal of
false sentiment against emigration was
due to Goldsmith's "Deserted Village"
and "Traveller"; but at that time emigrants
were very much left to take care
of themselves, and were unsupported
and unassisted by the State.
  Lord ORANMORE and BROWNE
said,...The prospects held out by the
Canadian Government were certainly very
attractive, and Her Majesty's Government
ought to endeavour in some way to assist our
people to avail themselves of the offers that
were made. It would be quite legitimate
that not only Government aid, but
also local aid and individual aid, should
be given. He believed that it would be
far more desirable than giving fixity of
tenure to small tenants in small holdings,
to send them to a country where
there was a vast extent of fertile land
that only required to be occupied and
cultivated to yield a good living and easy
prosperity to an industrious people.
  Lord MONTEAGLE said, he wished
to swell the general chorus of approval
with which the noble Earl's (the Earl of
Dunraven's) suggestion had been met, by
adding his own. He must, however, say
that although it was generally assumed
that emigration would be a panacea for
the difficulties existing in Connaught
and other parts of Ireland, yet he could
not persuade himself it would be so.
Still, he would urge the Government to
give the subject their best consideration.
If he doubted whether emigration would
be an unmixed good, it was because,
while the population was congested in
certain parts of Ireland, in other parts
it was sparse, and there were tracts of
mountain moorland that were perfectly
reclaimable. The hon. Member for Galway
(Mr. Mitchell Henry) had found it
possible almost to create land, which
was of a certain agricultural value, and
believed the process was remunerative.
Before systematically reducing the
population, it would be well, therefore,
if the Government would see whether there
was not land that might be available for
supporting some part of the population.
When noble Lords spoke of the "conversion"
of the Irish to emigration, he
felt it impossible not to sympathize with
the affectionate attachment of the Irish
people to the soil of their country,
although he admitted that the feeling was
carried to excess. As, however, a large
portion of the Irish people were emigrating,
it would be well if they could direct,
at least, a portion of the stream to their
own Colonies. With regard to the
development of emigration, he might
point out that during the first four
months of the year the number of emigrants
from Ireland was 34,046, and
during the same period of last year the
number was 11,904, which showed a
development of emigration since last year
of nearly treble. Two-thirds of the total
number of the emigrants last year went to
the United States; whereas in Connaught
the proportion was four-fifths of the whole
number; and in Mayo, where the evils
existed in the highest degree, the
proportion was 11 out of every 15. Of the
total emigration from Ireland since the
Returns were first compiled, about 12
per cent had emigrated under the
provisions of the Poor Law. In the year
1855, which might be taken as a fair
sample of emigration at its height, the
proportion was as high as 27 per 1,000;
while in March, 1880, the proportion
was only 6 per 1,000; so that, whatever
the influence of the Act might have been,
it was dying out. He could not disguise
from himself that there was a certain
danger in emigration as regarded migratory
labourers, particularly while the
system was going on of subdividing the
waste lands which were formerly held in
common. That system was proceeding
in Connaught, both on the estates of
good landlords, who wished to relieve
the congested population, and on the
properties of landlords who only wished
to increase their rentals, and if it was
to continue he only feared that the same
state of things as regarded the congestion
of population which they found so
threatening would arise again, and there
might arise with it that system of small
cottiers, which all deplored. He hoped
the subject would receive careful
attention on the part of the Government.
  The Earl of KIMBERLEY said, that
in the unavoidable absence of his noble
Friend the Lord President of the Council
(Earl Spencer) he had undertaken to
answer the Question for him; but he must
remind their Lordships that it was rather
an Irish than a Colonial question. As
far as the Colonies were concerned,
there could not be the slightest doubt
that it would be most advantageous to
them to get as large a number of emigrants
as they could to cultivate their
waste lands, although he was sorry to
say there were Colonies which, believing
that emigration would diminish the
wages they now enjoyed, discouraged
it. That, however, was certainly not
the case with Canada, in which Dominion
there were, undoubtedly, immense
tracts of land waiting to be cultivated,
and the Canadian Government
were wisely desirous of getting a large
number of emigrants to cultivate the
ground as soon as possible. Therefore,
as far as he was concerned, looking at
the interests of the Colonial Office, he
had not one word to say against any
proper scheme of emigration. But, as
he had said, this was an Irish question,
and in that point of view, perhaps, he
ought to speak of it with more reserve.
His noble Friend who had just sat down
(Lord Monteagle) seemed to balance
very much the arguments pro and con -
sometimes he favoured emigration, and
sometimes he wished to keep the population
at home. For himself, he must say
he doubted extremely whether emigration
was entirely the panacea for the ills of
Ireland it was sometimes supposed to be.
It was perfectly true that the great
emigration that took place in 1841 took
place under the most melancholy circumstances,
and the depletion of the population
then was not only owing to emigration,
but to the lamentable number
of deaths from famine and fever. The
figures were so remarkable that he would
quote them; at least, he would quote
those in regard to Connaught, the
Province most concerned. In 1841, the
population was 1,418,000; in 1851, it
had been reduced to 1,100,000; and in
1871, it had fallen to 846,000.
Notwithstanding that immense diminution,
they still found that the condition of
Connaught was such that they might
almost suppose no practical diminution
of the population had taken place. That
was not encouraging; and when he was
told that if they only sent away a certain
further proportion of the population at
the expense of the British taxpayer all
the evils of Connaught would be removed,
he confessed he was extremely
sceptical. There was another evil under
which various parts of Ireland suffered,
and which, he believed, was one of the
causes of the difficulties under which
landlords and tenants alike suffered,
and that was the small holdings. In
that respect it was well to observe the
prodigious change which had been
effected. In 1841 there were over
100,000 holdings under five acres; but
they had fallen in 1878 to 22,425.
These figures, then, showed that the
population had been greatly diminished,
and that the process of consolidating the
holdings was steadily going on. He
felt a great deal of doubt as to whether it
would be prudent of the Government to
interfere with that process, and, perhaps,
by an expenditure of œ10,000,000, to
transport a great portion of the population
to Manitoba and other distant
parts of Canada. There were several
practical objections. In the first place,
would the population go? That was a
matter of considerable doubt. He had
been told that landlords had frequently
offered the tenants on their estates the
opportunity to emigrate, but had not
found the offer freely accepted. Then,
again, let them look at the operation of
the existing law. Noble Lords hardly
seemed aware of the vast powers given
by the Act of 1849 to Boards of Guardians,
under which they might borrow money
on the security of the rates to the extent
of 11s. 8d. in the pound, for the purpose
of assisting emigration, and thus send
whole families out of the country. It
might be assumed that the sentiment of
Ireland was opposed to such emigration,
because they found that that power had
been only very slightly taken advantage
of, the number of families thus assisted
being only 585 since the passing of the
Act. Ireland, more than any country
in the world, was governed by sentiment,
and he was not disposed to disregard it.
Indeed - and he could speak from personal
experience - if there was anything
calculated to arouse jealously in Ireland,
it was what they called the English
Government assisting the landlords in
clearing their estates; and he should view
with considerable mistrust a policy of
advancing large sums to landlords for
that purpose, for that was what it would
come to. If the Boards of Guardians
were willing to assist emigrants, that
would be a very legitimate operation
indeed, for those Boards represented
the community on the spot; they were,
or ought to be, the best judges of what
was required, and he believed did their
duty very well. If these Boards of
Guardians were disposed to take advantage
of those powers of borrowing which
they possessed he would receive it with
great satisfaction. Speaking his own
opinion - he had no authority to do
otherwise - he thought that assistance
might be given to local bodies of that
kind; but funds given to landlords
for the purpose of promoting emigration
would render both the landlords
and the Government open to
misconstruction. He believed that a
great deal more might be done in
Ireland by the exertions of resident
proprietors on the spot than was admitted
by some, or than would even
result from emigration. He was quite
willing to assist in the promotion of
any emigration of a legitimate
character... .
  Earl FORTESCUE said, he was
sadly disappointed at the speech of his
noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley).
...If the Government profiting by the
special facilities now opportunely
offered by the Canadian Government,
took emigration up not merely as
a means of enabling landlords to clear
their estates, but in conjunction with
Boards of Guardians; if they went to
work systematically, so that whole families
might emigrate and carry the feeling
of family with them, much good might be
done. If the people were allowed to take
some of their pastors with them to such a
country as Canada - and, Protestant as
he was, he would not object to that - if they
could find there the society which they had
left behind, and almost everything the
same except their poverty, he believed
they would be a source of strength and
wealth to the Dominion, and that, while
finding prosperity for themselves, they
would confer hardly a less benefit upon
those they had left behind.
...The Earl of REDESDALE (Chairman
of Committees) said, the difficulties
in the way of what was proposed were
almost insuperable; and he wished to
point out that, in order to relieve the
congestion of the population, there ought
to be a provision that if persons were
assisted to emigrate, the houses in Ireland
in which they resided should be
pulled down; otherwise, other families
would come to inhabit them, and the
recurrence of the evil would be certain
and immediate.
  The Earl of KIMBERLEY said,
he had omitted to give some figures in
the course of his remarks which had an
interesting bearing on the case. The
number of emigrants from Irish ports in
the first six months of 1879 were 22,787;
and for the first six months of the present
year they were 64,583, showing an
increase of 41,795. That, at least, showed
that an increased emigration was going
on.
  Lord DENMAN said, that he had
referred their Lordships to Maguire's
The Irish in America, and had desired
to present a copy of it to the Library of
their Lordships' House.
  The Earl of DUNRAVEN, in reply,
said, he had never suggested that emigration
should take any other form than
an extension of the system of granting
loans to the Boards of Guardians. The
money which was advanced by them
could be secured on the holdings of the
emigrants in Canada, according to the
scheme laid down in the Bright Clauses
of the Land Act.