Report from the Select Committee on Colonisation.

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Document ID 9705315
Date 23-07-1889
Document Type Official Documents
Archive Queen's University, Belfast
Citation Report from the Select Committee on Colonisation.;British Parliamentary Papers, 1889, X (274) 1. QQ 987-99;1004-15; 1036-37; 1197-1201; 1296-1301; 1326-40; 1342-44;1355-59.; CMSIED 9705315
22604
YEAR    VOLUME   CMD. REF     QQ.          BRIEF TITLE

1889      X       (274)     987-999     Report from Select
                           1004-1015      Committee on
                           1036-1037      Colonisation.
                           1197-1201
                           1296-1301
                           1326-1340
                           1342-1344
                           1355-1359



                     R    E   P   O   R   T

                           FROM  THE

                        SELECT  COMMITTEE

                              ON

                   C  O  L  O  N  I  S  A  T  I  O  N ;

             TOGETHER WITH THE

        PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE,

    M I N U T E S  O F  E V I D E N C E,

              AND  APPENDIX.



       Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed,

                   23 July 1889.


                    L O N D O N:
         PRINTED BY HENRY HANSARD AND SON;

                       AND

Published by EYRE and SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding-street,
  London, E.C., and 32, Abingdon-street, Westminster, S.W.;

 ADAM and CHARLES BLACK, North Bridge, Edinburgh;

and HODGES, FIGGIS, and Co., 104, Grafton-street, Dublin.



  Sir ROBERT G.W. HERBERT, K.C.B, called in ; and Examined.

                   Chairman.

 987. YOU are Under Secretary for the
     Colonies?- Yes.

 988. And you are prepared, I believe, to give
the Committee some evidence as to the proposals
which have been made to the Colonial Office
in connection with State-aided emigration ?-
Yes. A great part of the more recent ones are
contained in three Parliamentary Papers which
the Committee no doubt have seen; they are
Command Papers, Nos. 4751 and 5631, and
House of Common Paper, No. 106. There
are two other important schemes which have
never been laid before Parliament of which I
have the particulars in print, namely, a proposal
by Sir Alexander Galt, the late High
Commissioner for Canada, and by Mr., now Sir
George Stephen, the President of the Canadian
Pacific Railway. Those schemes which were
very important ones received a great deal of
consideration, so that I have ventured to bring
them although they are not amongst the
Parliamentary Papers.

989. How far back do those Papers go?- The
Papers I have mentioned go back to about the
year 1883; previously to that we have nothing
to produce. There were a large number of
suggestions in the anterior years which came to
nothing, and the records of them, I believe, are
not even in existence at the present time; they
are certainly not deserving of the attention of
the Committee. I do not think we could
procure the particulars, even if the Committee cared
to go into the proposals.

              Sir John Colomb.

990. Was not there a Despatch of the Government
of Canada signed by the Marquis of Lorne
in the month of October 1880, making a definite
proposal to the Imperial Government for a great
colonisation scheme to remove congestion in
Ireland?- I should think that was Sir George
Stephen's scheme.

              Chairman.

991. But Sir George Stephen's scheme was
the scheme of 1883, was it not?- Yes.

            Sir John Colomb.

992. I am speaking of the scheme of 1880,
when Lord Kimberley was at the Colonial Office;
it is published as a Parliamentary Paper?- I
will take a note of it.

               Chairman.

993. Will you tell the Committee briefly what
were the main features of Sir Alexander Galt's
scheme?- It was a scheme for working with the
Poor Law unions. His proposal was that the
Unions should be able to send out emigrants under
the control and supervision of the Local Government
Board. The scheme had reference to Irish
emigration principally to Canada; but I think
his idea was that it might be extended to English
emigration, if thought desirable; then there was
a colonisation part of it. His estimate was that
families capable of entering upon farming might
be placed upon land in Canada for about 20l.
per head; and that labourers and mechanics
might be absorbed into the country in Canada,
to work for wages at a cost to those who sent
them out of, say, 8l. per head.

994. Was there any idea of repayment?- Yes.
With regard to the colonisation part of it, it was
proposed that the board of management should
take security upon the farms upon which the
emigrants were settled, for the repayment of
the advances at six per cent interest; and the
proposal with regard to emigrants who were to
work for labour was that they should repay
their passage money in one or more years
after their arrival in Canada, with interest. The
basis of the scheme was that the Treasury
should advance to the unions such sums as might
be required to carry out the scheme on the
security of the Poor Law rate for 10 years, equal
to 4 per cent upon the advance that might have
been made, and then to be terminable. And
Sir Alexander Galt's estimate was that in the
course of this scheme the union would be paying
16s. per annum for 10 years on 20l., or 8l. in
all, on account of each person emigrated, which
would be set against the present annual charge,
which he considered was about 10l. per head for
the maintenance of the individuals in receipt of
parochial relief. Sir Alexander Galt, in the
details of the scheme, which I suppose you will
have printed, says that "in the case of those
occupying land the mortgage would be ample
security for the advances, and the percentage of
loss would be small." Then he went on to say
that "with mechanics and labourers the risk of
loss by evasion or inability to pay would be
considerable. But the actual cost of removal to
and settlement in the colony would not be one-
half as large as in the former class." So that,
of course, Sir Alexander Galt, who is a man of
very great shrewdness and ability, was perfectly
well aware that the emigrant labourer is not at
all likely to repay anything that is advanced to
him to send him to a colony; but, on the other
hand, he thought that the security to be taken
upon the land upon which colonisation would be
started was sufficiently good to justify that part
of the scheme.

995. In point of fact, the risk of losing the
money advanced to the individual emigrant is
one which attends all schemes for individual
emigration?- Yes; it is the opinion of the
Colonial Office, and I think it is the opinion of
all the Colonial Governments also, that the
individual who has been assisted to go out from this
country because he is in great need does not feel
any moral obligation to repay the advances made to
him, and no legal mode of recovering them can be
devised which the Colonial Governments will
assist us to make operative.

996. As far as your judgement goes, no
proposition has ever been made to the Colonial
Office in connection with individual emigration
which gave any security worth having for the
repayment of the advances made to individual
emigrants?- That is so. At the same time it
has been the opinion of the Colonial Office that
in times of great congestion, and when
employment has been very difficult to obtain in this
country, it would, upon the footing on which
Sir Alexander Galt places it in that memorandum,
be expedient to assist them to emigrate, although
one entertained no expectation that they would
repay the advances.

997. But, as a matter of fact, is not the door
closed in Canada against immigrants who are
emigrated out of the rates?- They decline to
receive at present, and so it is in the
Australian colonies. Sir Alexander Galt, I
should say, did not propound that scheme in his
capacity of High Commissioner for Canada, but
as an individual; it was entirely on his personal
responsibility.

998. As a matter of fact, does not it seem
pretty clear from one of the Parliamentary
Papers to which you have alluded, Paper
[c.4751], that that is the opinion of the Canadian
Government; that in consequence of the limited
population in Canada it is not capable of receiving
an unlimited number of artizans and labourers?
-Yes.

999. And that as far as individual emigration
is concerned, that ought to be left entirely to the
voluntary system, and that, whether it be
provided for out of the rates or in any other
manner, it is likely that great difficulty and
distress would arise by anything like indiscriminate
emigration of individuals?- Yes; we believe that
that was at that time and is to-day the opinion
of the Dominion Government; it also would be
the opinion of the Australian Governments.

1004. The next scheme you spoke of was a
scheme suggested by Sir George Stephen?-
Yes, by Sir George Stephen, who was then
Mr. Stephen. He did not propose it on behalf
of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, but
he undertook to make the offer on the part of the
North Western Land Company of Canada.

1005. What  was  the  date  of  that?- That
was also in 1883. It had reference to
emigration from Ireland. His proposal was that the
Treasury should advance 1,000,000l. to the
North Western Land Company of Canada, and
that by the expenditure of that 1,000,000l. some
10,000 families, amounting in the whole to some
50,000 people, might be taken out to Canada;
that the company should give 160 acres of land
with a house, a cow, and agricultural implements,
seeds, and everything to start the colonisation, to
each family, and that the loan should run for 10
years without any interest, the company taking
all risks and responsibility for recovering from
the colonisers and repaying the loan. The
company would take a lien to the amount of
100l. on each block of 160 acres, which would
be given to the settler at 6 per cent., and
the settler might acquire the land by the
payment of that 100l. with interest, at any time
during his tenure of it. He held that the removal
of each family would cost the Government
no more than the interest on 100l. for 10 years;
that is 2l. 10s. a year, or 25l. over the 10
years. This scheme received a great deal of
consideration from the Government; it was in Lord
Derby's time. I produce the scheme, which,
as I say, was much considered, but the
proposal fell through because the Treasury thought
it necessary to stipulate that the Dominion
Government should make itself responsible for
recovering the advances from the settlers, both
principal and interest, and the Dominion Government
declined to do that. They said they would
readily give the land required, but they had
insuperable objections to the Government
becoming directly or indirectly the creditor of the
settlers. They thought that if they did undertake
to recover those advances there would be a
great deal of political influence used by settlers
to relieve them from making the repayment, and
that in fact the company would be more likely
to be able to put effective pressure upon the
settlers than the Government, for political
reasons, would be able to do. The Colonial Office
recommended the scheme strongly, because it
was felt that it could hardly fail to result in the
emigration of much more than 50,000 people.
Though the whole amount might not be repaid, a
greater number than 50,000 could have been
taken out of Ireland by it.

1006. It was proposed that there should be a
total loss of interest for 10 years?- Yes.

1007. Was not one essential feature of the
scheme that the money was to be found out of
the Irish Church Fund?- There was no such
stipulation or suggestion of the promoter of the
scheme; but the Government thought that if the
loans were made they might be made from the
Church Fund, the Consolidated Fund only being
chargeable in the event of the Church Fund
being proved to be insufficient?- That is a
correct statement of the way in which it was put.

1009. One of the features which was insisted
upon at the time also, I think, was that the
emigrants under that arrangement should be from
the congested districts only and in entire
families?- Yes.

1010. And that in each case the Irish
Government should be absolutely satisfied that the
holding of the emigrating family would be at once
consolidated with a neighbouring holding under
a satisfactory arrangement with the landlord?-
Yes.

1011. But a strong objection was entertained
by the Government to any arrangement being
made between the Imperial Government and a
private company?- Yes.

1012. As the first condition under which the
matter was to be considered, was not there a
requirement of a guarantee by the Canadian
Government which fell through, and that falling
through the other details of the scheme were
not proceeded with any further?- They were
not proceeded with any further in the absence
of an undertaking from the Dominion
Government.

1013. Has not that been a feature common to
all proposals which the Government have even
provisionally entertained, that there must be a
guarantee for the return of the money by the
Government of the colony to which the
emigrants went?- Yes; I am not aware of any
scheme having been entertained, because of the
impracticability of procuring from the Colonial
Governments any such assurance.

1014. And, as a matter of fact, the
Government have never been able to obtain the promise
of any guarantee of the kind from any Colonial
Government?- No; the Colonial Governments
have always said that they would be liberal in
their grants of land, that they would assist in
every sort of way, and would afford
accomodation to the emigrants on landing, but that
they would not assume the position of
guarantors.

1015. They declined, in point of fact, to take
up the position of landlords?- That is so.

1036. Then there was a scheme proposed by
Mr. Cracknell, was there not?- Yes, that was a
scheme for the relief of the Poor Law Unions.
It is not very much elaborated; it was a
general proposal that the law should be altered
as far as it might be necessary, to enable the
Poor Law Unions to devote part of their funds
to the emigration of suitable persons.

1037. I would ask you upon that point, is it
not practically the case that the colonies which
are available for emigration purposes as a rule
decline to accept immigrants who have been
assisted from the Poor Law?- Yes, they
entertain the very strongest objection to them. Most
of them would even decline to enquire into the
antecedents of those who had received Poor Law
relief; they would not take the trouble to
ascertain whether it was accidental, or casual, or
habitual pauperism. They would have nothing
to do with it. In fact, their feeling with regard
to paupers is nearly as keen as with reference to
the introduction of convicts into the colonies.


        Tuesday, 2nd July 1889.

                     MEMBERS PRESENT:

Sir George Baden Powell.              Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Campbell-Bannerman.               Mr. Rathbone.
Sir John Colomb.                      Mr. William Redmond.
Sir James Fergusson.                  Mr. Ritchie.
Mr. Gill.                             Mr. Sellar.
Mr. J.M. Maclean.                     Mr. Wodehouse.
Colonel Malcolm.                      Mr. Munro-Ferguson.
Mr. Osborne Morgan.

THE RIGHT HONOURABLE  CHARLES T. RITCHIE, IN THE CHAIR.


 SIR ROBERT G.W. HERBERT, K.C.B., called in; and further
Examined.

                    Chairman.

1197. Have you any other Papers to put in?
- I have a Despatch from the Marquis of Lorne,
the Governor General of Canada in 1880
(Command Paper, C.2835 of 1881); that is the Paper
which I promised to bring up when I came again
before the Committee. It is based upon a
proposal by Sir Alexander Galt, who was at that time
High Commissioner of Canada, and who was the
author of another scheme which I mentioned
when I was last before the Committee. The
Canadian Government proposed to Her
Majesty's Government that this country should
advance money at a low rate of interest by a
commission or association for the purpose of
transporting families from Ireland to Winnipeg.
He estimated that the cost of the transport of a
family to Winnipeg might be 40l.; that the cost
of building a house, ploughing the land, providing
seed and getting the land ready for the first
crop, would be from 35l. to 40l. He suggested
that the Canadian Government should give a
free grant of 160 acres to each family with the
pre-emption of a further 160 acres adjacent to
the first grant; and he proposed that the money
advanced should be secured as a first charge
upon the land, and should be repaid by
instalments by the settlers with interest. It was not
further developed in detail. The despatch was
sent to Dublin Castle for the consideration of
the Irish Government; but we have no record in
the Colonial Office as to whether it received
consideration, and apparently no action was taken
in the matter.

1198. What is the date of that?- Ninth
November 1880.

1199. Then do I understand that the
proposal was that an advance of 80l. should be
made?- Yes, 80l. per family; but the details of
the mode in which it should be secured were not
gone into.

1200. I presume there was no suggestion of
any Canadian guarantee for the repayment?-
No.

1201. As far as you know, no action was taken
on the proposal?- No action at all, I believe.


         Sir John Colomb.

1296. Then there was a despatch which you
produced, which you say was sent directly from
the Colonial Office to the Irish Government?-
Yes.

1297. Was it immediately sent?- Yes, almost
immediately, I think. It was sent within a week
or two of the time.

1298. And you have received no communication
from them upon the subject?- No.

1299. Did you receive any communications
from the Irish Government with reference to the
carrying out of the State-aided emigration, a
considerable proportion of which was directed  to
Canada, in 1883-84? -No; the correspondence
was conducted, I think, between the High
Commissioner for Canada and the Irish Office; I think
it did not pass through the Colonial Office.

1300. You are aware, I presume, that a very
considerable number of families were sent to
Canada from different parts of Ireland under that
scheme?- I am aware of that.

1301. Have you any communication from the
Government of Canada calling attention to any
effect of that emigration?- I think none. I have
no recollection of any.

         Mr. William Redmond.

1326. May I ask to what you attribute the
fact that do very large a proportion of those
people who do emigrate go to the United States?
-I think they have more communication with
them; they have more friends there; they
receive more assistance from the States. Their
friends, perhaps, have acquired more means,
having been longer established, so as to be better
able to assist them. I think that is the
explanation of it.

1327. Are there any statistics at the
Information Office, or at any other office, that you know
of, which would show how great a proportion of
those people who can emigrate at their own
resources go to the United States from England,
Ireland, and Scotland?- Yes; I think the
monthly statistics which are published by the
Board of Trade would show you practically the
proportion of persons who go to the United
States and Canada respectively. It may be said
in most cases they pay their own passage with
assistance, particularly in the case of Ireland,
from their friends in the country to which they
go.

1328. But it is the fact, is it not, that even in
England, a very large proportion of those people
who are in a position to emigrate do go to the
United States of America?- Yes.

1329. And you attribute that to the fact that
they have friends there already?- Yes, I do not
consider that they have any other reason for
their predilection.

1330. But with regard to paupers, I have no
doubt you have a knowledge of the fact that
from time to time paupers have been sent back
from the United States?- Yes, certainly; the
veto is very stiff against them now.

1331. It is the fact, is it not, that a great deal
of the misery arises from the fact of people
emigrating to the cities and remaining in the cities
in America?- Yes.

1332. I gather from your remarks that in your
opinion the colonies, especially the Australian
colonies offer a better field for emigration than
the United States? -Yes, for emigrants who
have shown the requisite energy to get the
money into their pockets, and who can find their
own way out; but I should say that I believe the
Australian colonies offer a very poor field for the
pauper class of people who linger about the
towns.

1333. In your opinion would the Australian
colonies afford the best field for colonisation?-I
would hardly say that.

1334. Is it not the fact that there is a great
demand in some of the Australian colonies for
skilled labour?-There is always a great demand
in Australia for skilled labour.  The mechanics
and artisans get very high wages.

1335. You would know that some time ago
last year or the year before, there were some
labour delegates over here from the Australian
colonies, principally New South Wales, who
most energetically declared that there was no
demand for labour out there at all?-Yes; they
were very anxious to prevent the rates of wages
from being lowered by a large influx of
competing skilled labour.

1336. You do not think they represented the
state of affairs to advantage?-I do not think
so.

                  Mr. Gill.

1337. Can you account for the fact that there
is a continuous stream of emigration over the
border from Canada into the States?-I cannot
explain that.  I am informed that it does exist,
but I know some Canadian authorities consider
there is almost an equal stream of immigration
the other way; that they come and go very
frequently, and that is not any permanent loss to
Canada; but I cannot give you any figures
myself upon the point.

1338. Now with regard to emigrants of the
pauper class, for whom you say that the Australian
colonies would not afford at all a good field,
what region do you consider would be a good
field for them to emigrate to?- I think their best
chance would be a colonisation settlement where
the conditions would be very favourable, and
where inferior labour would be able to do as well
as good labour would in a good colony,

1339. Which of the colonies would afford such
a field as that?- I would say it must depend
entirely upon the particular locality in any colony.
I should think Canada would be preferable to
any other.

1340. Is that because of the great number of
towns there?- I think so; because the land
would more steadily improve in a Canadian
settlement.

    Mr. CHARLES P. LUCAS, called in; and examined.

       Chairman.

1342. You are an official of the Colonial
Office?- Yes.

1343. In addition to that I believe you are
Secretary to the Emigrants' Information Office?
-The Secretary of State is nominally the
chairman of our managing committee, but practically
I always take the chair; so that I suppose I ought
to describe myself as chairman of it.

1344. What was the date of the opening of
this office?-It was opened on the 11th of October
1886; the final arrangements for it were made
when Lord Granville and Mr. Osbourne Morgan
were at the Colonial Office; they were completed
by Mr. Stanhope, and the office was opened in
October 1886.

1355. Have you any branch office in Ireland,
or is it confided altogether to London?-That is
rather our difficulty.  I think we want some
branch offices.

1356. Then I take it that you have no office in
Ireland?-No.

1357. Do you give to people desiring to emigrate
from Ireland the same information as you are
able to give to those desiring to emigrate from
England?-We have no office there for personal
inquiry.

1358. Do you receive inquiries from Ireland?
-Yes, a certain number; during the quarter
just ended, the 30th June, out of the total
number of letters that we received, about four
per cent. came from Ireland; that was for that
quarter only; last quarter was a very slack
quarter, but there are letters of inquiry from Ireland.

1359. You are strongly under the impression,
looking to the large emigration which takes place
from Ireland, that there ought to be some mode
by which the information which you get should
be available personally in Ireland?- Yes, I
think so; and not in Ireland only, but in the
big provincial towns also, and I have been
personally looking forward to the time when there
will be branches of the Imperial Institute which
will be available for the diffusing of that
information. I have here some account of we
diffuse our information now. We make use of
the post offices in the first instance. We send
to a large number of workmen's clubs, and to the
free public libraries. In England we have offered
our circulars to all the country clergy, but only a
very small proportion, about 1,800, I think in all,
have expressed a wish to have them quarterly,
for the use of their clubs and institutes.