DOMINION OF CANADA - STATE-AIDED
EMIGRATION.
MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in rising
to move -
"That an humble Address be presented to
Her Majesty for copies or extracts of
correspondence between the Secretary of State for
the Colonies and the President of the Canada
Pacific Railway in regard to state-aided emigration
to Canada; also for copies or extracts
of correspondence on the same subject between
the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr.
F.Boyd,"
said, that the Motion of which he had
given Notice needed some brief explanation.
First of all, he desired to call
attention to the congested state of the
labour market. The state of things there,
as their Lordships knew, was grievous.
It was even more than that - it was
dangerous. Of course, there were many
modes in which this great difficulty might
be met. A great deal might be done by
improved accommodation with respect to their
houses; but, although that touched one
very important side of the question, it
could not cover the whole ground. In order
to produce any real and permanent improvement,
nothing short of emigration, and emigration
on a large scale, would meet the case.
Immigration from the country to London
had been one great cause of the distress,
and now emigration from London must take
place. Here, in London, they had an
excessive population, stagnation of the
labour market, low wages, or rather in many
parts no wages, and high rents, combining to
make a state of things only to be described
as utter misery, and that condition was
increasing. In their Colonies, on the other
hand, within only a few days' sail from this
country, there were large tracts of magnificent
land, high wages, ample work, and a desire - in
fact a demand - for labour. But then it had
been asked why it was that no advantage had been
taken of this. This was partly due to the ignorance
of the classes themselves whom it affected, and
partly to the absence of proper machinery
for the purpose. Voluntary organization had
done, and was doing, a great deal to remedy
the evil. The Local Governments themselves
subscribed largely to the expenses of
emigration, Canada paying a quarter, and
Australia nearly one-half of the cost;
but something over and above all that was
needed, and the question he desired to bring
before their Lordships by his Motion was,
how far the Government might assist that
emigration? It was true there were many
objections that might be urged against this.
It was constantly said, sometimes in speeches
and sometimes in print, that the aid of the
State involved the principle of Communism;
but it was very easy to blacken the merits
of any scheme by giving it a name of that sort;
and it was always to be remembered that, if there
was any Communism involved in such aid, we
already had that principle in our Poor Laws.
A more practical objection was that there
would be great difficulty in selecting the
emigrants; but he felt confident, for his own
part, that machinery qualified for dealing with
the subject could be devised. It never could be
contemplated as desirable to emigrate the
worthless portion of the class they were
endeavouring to relieve; they must be such
as would be approved of by the Colonial
authorities of the places to which they
were going. He would admit that there were
a great many who were disqualified by the
life they had led from the agricultural
life of the Colonies; but there were undoubtedly
many, also, that were by character, habits,
and occupation, perfectly well fitted for it.
Another objection which was raised was that
by State emigration they were taxing the
Mother Country to send out labour for the
benefit of the Colonies. The answer to this,
however, was simple. No doubt, by that
system, great benefit accrued to the Colonies;
but the benefit to this country was quite as
great in sending the unemployed elsewhere.
Then, the schemes referred to in the
Correspondence in question did not go to
provide cheap labour for the Colonists;
the idea was that they were to be settled
upon lands of their own, and should become
farmers and small proprietors, not that
they should work for any other person.
The next objection made against the aid
of the State in emigration was, to his
mind, perhaps the most important of all.
It was said that when the State interfered,
there was great danger that they would
injure voluntary effort. If he had thought
that voluntary effort would be seriously injured
by such a change in policy, he certainly would
not have advocated any such scheme; but,
in this case, voluntary effort had proved
unequal to the great strain put upon it.
A very large number, it was true, had been
sent out; but they formed, in reality,
merely a small portion of those who should
be assisted, and there was necessity for larger
means and stronger organization. A further
objection made was that there was no surplus
labour to send out of the country. He
replied - "See with your own eyes." He
thought that no one could hold such an argument
who had ever witnessed the piteous
scenes that took place at the dock gates
in London. Even in agricultural districts,
machinery had thrown a quantity of labour
out of employment. It was sometimes
said that in sending out emigrants
in this manner they would not send out
the best class. He quite admitted that
those sent out would not be the best
class; but, for his part, he would be
sorry to see the best class sent out
of the country. There was an intermediate
class between the best and the worst, who,
under more favourable circumstances
than those under which they now had
to exist, were easily convertible into
excellent workmen, and would become
admirable Colonists. There was only
one other objection which he could remember
having heard against such a plan, and that
was that in any of these schemes there
might be considerable difficulty in
getting the money refunded by the Colonist
to the Government. A certain portion
of the money might, perhaps, be lost; but
the security taken was sufficiently good
security to guarantee a very large proportion
of the money being recovered; and even if
a small portion of the money should be
lost, he maintained that the experiment was
worth trying. It might be urged that what
he was advocating was a new doctrine; but
he did not think that it was so new as many
supposed. His noble Friend opposite would be
aware that the Boards of Guardians were entitled
to raise money in aid of emigration, and
during the last 60 or 70 years there had
been a steady growth in this direction.
A Statute of the Reign of Willian IV. gave
power to owners and occupiers to raise money
for this purpose, and by a Statute of the
present Reign the power had been largely
increased. The whole tenour and tendency of
recent practice and legislation on that subject
had been to remove restrictions and give
fresh facilities. But, further, there was
a department at the Colonial Office which
existed for rather more than 30 years -
between 1840 and 1871 - which was so
constituted as to superintend the passage
of emigrants, and during that time it
superintended the departure from this country
of between 6,000,00 and 7,000,000 of emigrants.
He had not been able to satisfy himself how
far that emigration had been assisted by Votes
of Paliament or by grants in aid, but on
certain occasions public money had been voted
for it in exceptional instances. The Irish
Famine, he thought, was one of them; and the
expense of that office itself and the
establishment connected with it was defrayed
from public sources. Therefore, it could
hardly be contended that the doctrine was altogether
a new one. Their Lordships would remember
that three years ago, when the Irish Land Act
passed in that House, there was a clause which
enabled the Government to raise money without
limitation as to amount for purposes of
emigration. In the other House of Parliament,
at the instance of certain Irish Members, that
clause was very much cut down and limited.
When the Bill was before their Lordships he
endeavoured to give the provision some additional
scope and enlargement; but the Ammendment was
not accepted. The clause was much reduced
and stunted in its operation; but even so
the Irish Government were empowered to raise
œ200,000 for emigration; and therefore, so
far as the principle went, it had been
admitted in recent times. In advocating
such a system of emigration he held that certain
limits and conditions must be laid down.
The principle conditions should, it seemed to him,
be, first, that the emigrant should be a fit
and competent man - that was by agricultural
knowledge, and capacity, and also by physical
strength; secondly, there should be a satisfactory
and competent machinery for selection - a
machinery which would adequately represent the
local authorities, and pass, as it were, through
the sieve the various applicants for emigration;
thirdly, it was important that the emigration
should be so sufficiently gradual as to be
absorbed without inconvenience by the new
country to which the emigrants were sent;
and, lastly, some security should be taken
for repayment by the emigrant, either in whole
or in part of the money advanced. There had
been in that Correspondence various proposals
that would, more or less, carry out those objects.
He now asked for the Correspondence that had
passed between the Secretary of State for the
Colonies and the President of the Canada
Pacific Railway, and also for the Correspondence
between the Secretary of State and Mr. Boyd,
who was greatly interested in emigration from
the East End of London. He believed that
there was no secret about the proposals
which Mr. Stephens made rather more than a
year ago to Her Majesty's Government.
The Canada Pacific Railroad was one of
those gigantic enterprizes connecting ocean
with ocean which were pushed forward in these
days with an energy and a vigour which were
truly marvellous. The Railway Company
had received from the Dominion Government
large concessions of land alongside of the line,
and that land was the subject-matter of the present
proposal. In addition to that, the Hudson's Bay
Company and the North-West Company were owners of
vast tracts of land, and their object was to secure
emigrants for that territory. Mr. Stephen's proposal,
he believed, was that Her Majesty's Government should
advance without interest a loan of œ1,000,000
sterling for 10 years; that the company should
alot to each settler a block of 160 acres, reserving
the adjoining block of the same extent for the
Company. The emigrant would be transplanted,
provided with a house, agricultural implements, seeds
- in fact, everything required to settle him on
that block of land, at the same time taking such
precautions that he would be able to live
for the first year. The next step was to
take a mortgage on the land at 6 per cent.
The English Treasury were to advance the
money, so that they would have ample means
of seeing that it was properly expended; and
the land, with the adjoining block reserved,
would constitute the security for repayment.
That was the scheme which was proposed in
reference to Irish emigration alone. The plan
proposed by Mr.Boyd was, he thought, in its
general principles, so nearly like that of
Mr. Stephens that he need not particularly
describe it. The Irish scheme had fallen
through. Objections had been taken
and difficulties made by Her Majesty's
Government. He did not know in what
condition the east London scheme stood;
but he feared that little or nothing had
been done. He was not there to
advocate either Mr. Stephens's or Mr.
Boyd's scheme. He did not desire to
advocate any particular proposal, still
less to advocate any broadcast and
indiscriminate expenditure on the part of
the Imperial Treasury. But he thought
that the time had come when that question
should be considered from different
points of view as it had never yet been
considered, and that the State might
properly intervene, at all events, to help
themselves. That being so, he thought
it was the duty of the Government not
to leave the matter to voluntary effort
entirely, but to see whether they could
not devise some sound and practical
method of assisting the work. The Irish
scheme, as he had said, had failed. He
did not know what the reason of that
failure might be; but he believed his
noble Friend was not wholly averse
from the principle which he had
mentioned. Last year he gave a very
encouraging reply to a Question on this
subject. He said that there was a great
congestion of the labour market in the
East of London, and that the difficulty
was growing; and he went on to say,
speaking for the Colonial Office, that he
did not know that any great difficulty
need be apprehended as regarded this
proposal, because it was no doubt possible
to make arrangements with the
Colonial Governments. Therefore, he
did not think, so far as they might
judge from the utterances of his noble
Friend, that there would be any invincible
objection on his part. What, then,
was the objection, if there be one, on
which this scheme was opposed? Was
it an objection of principle, or was it
merely an objection of Treasury detail?
If it be an objection of principle, then
he thought it was important their Lordships
should know what it was; and if
it be an objection on the part of the
Treasury, he should like to know the
nature of it? He had heard it said that
the Canadian Government were perfectly
willing to give every facility, to
give actual security, for the payment of
this loan, to make themselves responsible
for it, and to step, as it were, into
the shoes of the landlord as regarded
the emigrant tenant. He could perfectly
well understand such an objection
on their part; but he did not think that
the same objection could apply at all to
the Government. The risks and evil of
allowing the present condition of things
in our large towns to go on growing in
the same ratio were tremendous, and it
could hardly be doubted that it was a
wise and sound policy to run some risk
in its alleviation. He had little further
to add in moving for this Correspondence,
except to press for the utmost of
his power on Her Majesty's Government
and the House the great evil and
danger of the present state of things,
such as existed in many of our large
town in the Kingdom. However continuous
the emigration might be, more
persons came into this town than were
taken away. Emigration from Scotland,
Ireland, and foreign countries poured
into this large town, and the evil was
still more enhanced by the fact that the
German workman undersold the labour
market of England. Lastly, there was
emigration from our own country districts.
Poor country people come to London,
and by their presence contributed
still more to swell the already enormous
population. London at present was, in
point of population, nearly as large as
Scotland, and it was still increasing in
size. No one could think of the condition
of the Metropolis and the bonds
which loosely held its immense population
together without being made aware
of the numberless difficulties and dangers
which presented themselves at every
turn. He thought we were approaching
a time in the existence of these great
cities, such as, indeed, the world had
never seen before, and to which the
attention of the Government ought to be
most seriously directed. It was the duty
of the Government to bring their minds,
free of prejudice, to a consideration of
the question and to accept the facts,
such as they were. It was their duty to
find a timely and well-considered measure
to avert that which was an evil of
overwhelming and increasing proportion
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented
to Her Majesty for copies or extracts
of correspondence between the Secretary of
State for the Colonies and the President of the
Canada Pacific Railway in regard to state-aided
emigration to Canada; also, for copies or extracts
of correspondence on the same subject between
the Secretary of State for the Colonies and Mr.
F.Boyd." - (The Earl of Carnarvon.)
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I
waited a moment to see whether any
other noble Lord wished to follow the
noble Earl in the interesting speech he
has delivered. To those observations I
am sure you will have listened with
interest, whether you entirely agree or
not with the conclusions to which he
came. There is no doubt that the
question to which he has called our
attention is one, not merely of great
interest at the present moment, but one
of great importance in the future. It
cannot be discussed in an off-hand manner
and done with; the question of
what we are to do with the outflow of
our population is not one for this year
or the next, but one which will concern
the next generation as much, if not
more than, the present. Now, my Lords,
I am not at all inclined to argue in a
doctrinaire manner upon the question of
how far state assistance should be given
to promote emigration. The question,
I think, has never been fully discussed
or argued out in either House of Parliament,
and it is one in which we must be
guided much more by that experience
which we gather as we go along than by
any preconceived notions. There is no
doubt, as my noble Friend has stated,
that of late years we have been in the
habit of sanctioning the employment of
public funds for many purposes which
it was formerly thought were better left
to individual enterprize. I do not say
whether that tendency is good or bad.
I accept it as one of the most remarkable
characteristics of the time in which we
live; and I will willingly conceded to my
noble Friend that there are many worse
uses to which public funds can be applied
than that to which he proposes to apply
them. I see no sense in talking
about a scheme of State-assisted emigration,
as if it were of a Communistic
character, because if that is Communistic
there are many things done by
the State which equally deserve that character.
My noble Friend was quite
right in citing the case of the Poor Law
and State assistance in education. If it
be proper to feed a man when he cannot
support himself, and to give his children
the greater part of their primary education
gratis, then it is impossible to argue
on the ground of principle against transferring
labour at the public expense
from one place where it is not wanted
to another where it is wanted. I think,
also, my Lords, there is no ground of
complaint against the expenditure of
public money from Imperial funds
merely because it has conferred incidentally
a benefit upon the Colonies which
are concerned. If we find that we
are better off by getting rid of a certain
amount of labour which is not wanted in
this country, if we can promote our own
advantage and save our own pockets by
transferring that labour elsewhere, it
certainly is no reason against taking
that step that the Colonies also will be
the gainers by its being taken. But, my
Lords, I do not think that my noble
Friend has quite made out his case. He
has to show that the work of emigration
upon a great scale requires to be
taken in hand, and that it cannot be
done by private enterprize. Now, I
am not speaking at all of what may
be the case hereafter, and I am not
laying down a general principle for
all time; I am simply speaking with
reference to the circumstances as they at
present exist. I would just remind your
Lordships of several facts with which I
daresay you are familiar. The last
Emigration Return shows that at this
moment we have a larger outflow of
population from the British Islands than
has ever been known at any previous
period. I may, perhaps, modify that
statement so far as to accept one or two
years which immediately followed the
Irish Famine; but the emigration of
those years was due to purely exceptional
and temporary causes. I think
if my noble Friend will look at the
Emigration Returns which are on the
Table of the House he will see that the
emigration in 1883 was 320,000 persons
of British and Irish origin, and
this rate is greater than it has been at
any previous period. Ireland alone contributed
of than number 105,000 persons;
and your Lordships will further find, by
looking at this Return, that the natural
growth of Ireland is less than the outflow,
and that the population is, in consequence,
steadily decreasing. The same
cannot be said of England and Scotland;
but, taking the whole of the
British Isles, your Lordships will see
that the present rate of emigration is
equal to 1 per cent of the whole population.
Speaking generally, and taking
the country as a whole, I do not
think there is a demand for any
acceleration of this outflow. I quite agree
with my hon. Friend that in considering
this subject we must bear in mind the
absorbing power of the Colonies themselves,
and I do not believe the present
rate of outflow could be very largely
increased without pressing unduly on
the labour market of the Colonies. The
next question is - Will the present rate
of emigration continue? I think it
will, and that it may very probably increase.
I think we may fairly expect
that the demand for labour in the Colonies,
which to a great extent regulates
the amount of emigration, will be greater
in the future than in the past. The
attractive power of a Colony is in proportion
to the bulk of the attracting mass.
It is greater in the United States than
in Canada and Australia, because there
is there more capital and more employment,
and the field is being continually
extended as the advatages of other
countries are being made known. There
is another cause which my noble Friend
partly admitted. He stated that among
the reasons why emigration was not as
popular among the working classes as
might be expected were ignorance and
poverty. Whatever may happen as to
the poverty of the working classes, there
is no doubt that ignorance is diminishing
from year to year, and especially ignorance
on this subject. The rising generation
are learning to read and write,
and the next generation will be a much
more reading people than the last. This
change will especially take place and be
most marked in the agricultural districts,
which have hitherto been most
backward. Moreover, there has been an
enormous amount of emigration; and
probably there is not a village or parish
in the country from which one or two
persons have not emigrated. In this
way information as to Colonial life is
communicated to those who stay at
home. Those who thus take an interest
in Colonial matters, and compare their
chances of a career at home and in the
Colonies, are in consequence year by
year increasing. There is another consideration -
that as communication
becomes more rapid and more complete
the risks and inconveniences of an emigrant's
life tend to diminish. The attraction
of cheap land remains; but the difficulty
of getting to and from and the hardships
of an emigrant's life perpetually
diminish. We have heard quite enough
in this House of the Irish land legislation
of the last two years, and I do not
wish to refer to it in any controversial
spirit; but I think that, whatever other
result may follow from the change in
the Irish Land Laws, the tendency will
be rather to promote than check the
consolidation of farms, and as a
consquence, to increase the emigration of
the surplus population. The Irish tenants
have no longer any fear of eviction;
but they have power to sell their holdings;
the smaller and poorer farmers
will be under a constant pressure to sell,
especially in times of distress; and it
is my opinion that the outward movement
will be not retarded but accelerated.
Of course, the adoption of a
higher standard of living and comfort,
which I believe there is no doubt is
taking place, tends in the same direction.
For these reasons, it is my belief
that, as far as the next few years are
concerned, all the probabilities point
not to a diminution but to an increase
in the rate of outward movement.
If this is the case, it diminishes
the urgency of the suggestion which my
noble Friend now makes in favour of an
official stimulus being given to emigration.
He reminded us that Boards of
Guardians have certain powers in this
matter; and if these powers have not
been used, I apprehend the reason to be
that in the general judgement of those
who have to deal with this matter
emigration is already going on so rapidly
as to require no stimulus. The noble
Lord referred to the congestion of the
labour market. I do not know if he
meant all over the country, or in certain parts.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: In certain parts.
THE EARL OF DERBY: Well, local
distress and local difficulties require local
rather than general treatment. The
noble Earl specially referred to the East
End of London, and I agree with what
he said on that subject. But I am
afraid that, do what you will - and a
great deal has been done lately - you
will find that the poorer parts of London
are the natural refuge of those who
have failed elsewhere. I do not know
why it is, but it has always been so. It
is also a question of how many of the East
Enders, if they were offered the opportunity
of emigrating, would be willing
to go, or would be of the right sort to
emigrate. It is not enough that a man should
be able-bodied - that is, that he should
have the right number of legs and arms -
to make a successful emigrant. You
require other qualities which are not
always found in the poorer classes. We
had some experience some 14 or 15 years ago
of a plan, not of emigration, but of
migration. In 1869 and 1870 there was
an exceptional amount of distress in the
East End, and many men were sent
from the East End to the Northern
towns, where there was a brisk demand
for labour; but the plan did not succeed.
A few remained and prospered,
but the majority went back. They did
not like the new conditions of life which
were offered, and preferred the distress
with which they were familiar. Now, I
have laid great stress upon that point,
because it really is not enough that
men should be in distress and want
work to justify our sending them to
the Colonies. When the Colonists import
labour for themselves it is their
object to get men who will be able to
do the work they require to be done.
But when we export labourers, not because
they are wanted in the Colonies,
but because there is not work for them
in this country, there is naturally a
strong inducement to select not those
who are the best fitted to go, but those
who can best be spared. Another consideration
is that no large scheme of
emigration taken up by the State can
possibly be expected to work without
the co-operation of the Colonies to which
the emigrants are sent. It is said that
the Colonies ought to wish for a large
supply of labour. If the emigrants are
well chosen, it may, no doubt, be for the
permanent benefit of the Colony that
they should settle there; but it is not for
the benefit of all persons concerned -
for instance, it is not for the benefit of
the ruling class, which in Colonial communities
is the working class. The labourers in the Colonies enjoy exceptionally
high wages. They have got a
good thing, and are, of course, desirous
of keeping it; and for that reason no
great scheme of emigration is likely to
be popular in the Colony to which the
emigrants go. That consideration applies
still more strongly if the Colonists believe,
or seem to believe, that those we
send out are those whom we wish to get
rid of. But there is a third objection to
large schemes of emigration, and that
is that in adopting them we should run
the risk of superceding instead of
supplementing, private efforts in that direction.
In certain districts there are persons
who want to emigrate. Suppose
that in a given district 100 men wish to
go out; most of them will probably succeed
with the help of their families, and
of their richer neighbours in the absence
of State help. If, however, Government
passages were offered to 20 of them, the
other 80 would be sure to wait until they
also got help; and every man who was
not assisted would feel aggrieved. I do
not consider that an insuperable obstacle;
but it is, nevertheless, one that
would have to be encountered, and one
that must be considered. With regard
to the general plan which has been
hinted at - namely, the plan of planting
down a large community in a district
reserved - I am not prepared absolutely
to condemn it. There are, no
doubt, some advantages in it, and possibly
in some instances it might be successful;
but it would more probably fail,
for this reason - that such plans are
arranged, not by those whom they chiefly
concern, but by persons at a distance,
who do not understand, and therefore
fail to comply with, the necessary local
conditions. I do not think my noble
Friend will ask me to discuss in detail
the Canadian scheme of last year. That
scheme fell through because the Canadian
Government absolutely declined to
guarantee repayment of the sum proposed
to be spent, and other securities
were not deemed sufficient. It is obvious
that if loans of that kind are to
be made, repayments must be required.
But if the Government is left to collect
its debts from individual emigrants,
which is the only other way of obtaining
the money, I think there would be a
very small prospect of the sum being
obtained. In conclusion, I doubt whether
there is, at the present time, any
requirement or demand for such State
emigration as my noble Friend proposes,
and I doubt whether the scheme
he proposes would be very well received
in the Colonies. Moreover, I am quite
sure that if it is not cordially received
by them it will not work; and I think
therefore, that the question would be
better dealt with locally. For instance,
it would be a very fair matter for a
Municipal Authority for London, if we
ever get one, to consider the question
as it affects London. So with the other
large towns, it is preferable that they should
proceed step by step, and feel
their way, rather than that they should
commit themselves at once to any heavy
expenditure. The Papers I am able to
produce will be rather scanty, and it
would be inconvenient to give the
interDepartmental Correspondence; but such
Correspondence as can be given shall be
produced. Before sitting down, I should
like to make a personal explanation.
My noble Friend opposite, referring to
a reply I made some time since to a
Question on this subject, quoted me
as having said that, in regard to a scheme
of this sort, no difficulty would be found
in the Colonial Office, and he inferred
that there was disagreement between the
Departments concerned. What I did
say was that the objection, if any, would
not lie with the Colonial Office, but that
we do not find the funds. The question
of funds is a question for the Treasury;
and I wish to be understood that I did
not in any way pledge my Colleagues,
but that my observations applied solely
to the action of my own Department.
LORD NORTON wished to take the
opportunity of saying a few words on
what was, perhaps, a small branch of
emigration, but which, at the same time,
might be made a very successful and
important one; and it had the merit
that instead of costing anything it would
effect an enormous saving. Every child
which was brought up and boarded out
in the cottages of foster parents, as
was now very frequently the practice
in this country, and still more so in
Scotland, cost the Treasury something like
œ25 a-head per annum during the
whole period of their education. If
foster parents were found to take homeless
children in Canada the saving would
be as great to this country as the
advantage to the Colony and to the children;
for one single payment of œ25 on
sending the children to Canada would
provide for them infinitely better than
the œ25 a-year during the whole of
their education, which was paid for them
in this country. They would there be
useful to their foster parents, and would
become acclimatized to a country in
which they would be able to find, and
fit to exercise, certain employment
hereafter.
LORD DENMAN said, it was courteous
in the noble Earl the Secretary of State
for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) to
give time for any noble Lord to speak;
but it would have been vain for anyone
to speak until he had heard the
answer to the remarks of the noble
Earl the Secretary of State for the
Colonies. He (Lord Denman) had had
the honour of presenting a copy of Maguire's
The Irish in America to the
Library of their Lordship's House;
he found in it that the Irish always adapted
themselves to the best modes of
agriculture. He was glad to hear from
the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) that
emigration was on the increase, for it
was far better for the poor to live abroad
than to starve at home; but he did not
think, because men were starving at
the East End of London, that, if better
fed, they would be unable (if also sober)
to do any kind of work. He believed
that it was a mistake for them to settle
in towns; but he thought that fellow-
labourers, instead of repelling them
as the noble Earl imagined, would
welcome them. He did not follow the
utilitarian ideas of the noble Earl; and
he hoped that, notwithstanding the
want of a guarantee, emigration on a
large scale would answer. At the same
time, he wished that great care should be
taken to prevent the people from
believing that we wished to get rid of them
Motion agreed to.
