Questions on the Loss of the Steamship Titanic.

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Document ID 9802687
Date 29-04-1912
Document Type Newspapers (Shipping News)
Archive Queen's University, Belfast
Citation Questions on the Loss of the Steamship Titanic.;Hansard's Parliamentary Debates, 1912, Vol. XXXVII, Series 5, Cols. 1504, 1522; CMSIED 9802687
20523
      LOSS OF THE STEAMSHIP "TITANIC."
                  UNITED STATES INQUIRY.

      Captain WARING asked the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs whether he was aware that, at the
Senatorial inquiry in the United States into the
"Titanic" disaster, one senator asked a witness if
watertight compartments were intended for the reception
of passengers in a time of danger, and that
witnesses had been brought before the inquiry when in
a condition of health which precluded their being able
to give evidence in a satisfactory manner; and, if so,
would he give the assurance that no official notice
whatever would be taken of the inquiry now taking
place in the United States?

      Mr. ACLAND: May I suggest to my hon. Friend that
it is undesirable by questions and answers in this
House to make reference on the basis of imperfect and
possibly inaccurate reports, to the proceedings of the
committee of the Senate of the United States Congress.
The President of the Board of Trade is taking steps to
obtain verbatim reports of the proceedings of the
committee in question, in case they may be of service
in connection with the investigations of the Court of
Inquiry about to be held here into the loss of the
steamship "Titanic."

      Mr. RONALD McNEILL asked the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs whether some of the passengers and
crew of the "Titanic," although British subjects not
charged with any criminal offence, had been forcibly
detained in America by order of a committee of the
Senate of the United States; or of any international
convention; and whether His Majesty's Government had
adressed or proposed to address to the Government  of
the United States any protest against such a violation
of the rights of British subjects?

      Sir GILBERT PARKER asked the President of the
Board of Trade whether any communications had passed
between this Government and the United States
Government concerning the forcible detention of
British passengers of the "Titanic"; and if he could
state the substance of such communications and the
result?

      Mr ACLAND: No complaints have been received by
the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether
he had issued any instructions to the British
Ambassador in the United States to take any steps to
protect the interests of British subjects who were
cited to appear before the American Senate's committee
which was inquiring into the loss of the "Titanic"?
And (2) whether the loss of the "Titanic," which was
now the subject of an inquiry by a committee of
American politicians, was a matter which was within
the jurisdiction of British courts; whether British
subjects were being detained in America for the
purposes of the American committee; and, if so,
whether he had addressed any communication to the
American Government on this matter?

      Mr. ACLAND: The answer to the first part of the
latter question is in the affirmative. The second part
of the question is answered by the reply to the hon.
Member for East Kent, which I have just given. The
position appears to be that the Senate Committee is
within its rights in holding an inquiry and requiring
the attendance of witnesses. In view of the fact that
there has been considerable loss of american as well
as British life, it is not unreasonable that American
authorities should hold an inquiry with a view to
considering for themselves what conditions are
desirable to ensure safety for traffic across the
Atlantic, and it would be undesirable that British
subjects who wish to return home should be put to
undue inconvenience by being detained for an
unreasonable time. The latest information received
indicates that the proceedings of the Committee are
not likely to be very prolonged as far as the
attendance of British witnesses is concerned , and no
official communication has yet been made to the United
States Government on the subject.

      Sir GILBERT PARKER: Is the information to which
the hon. Member refers official or only that which
appears in the public Press?

      Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT: Has the Foreign Office
addressed any communication to the American
Government?

      Mr. ACLAND: I said that we had not.


                  FALSE REPORTS.

Colonel YATE asked the Postmaster-General whether he
is now in a position to state the origin of the false
reports circulated regarding the safety of the
"Titanic"?

      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I have received promises of
full assistance in my inquiries from the shipping
companies concerned and from the Marconi Company, but
the records of some of the ships which were Westward
bound have not yet arrived, and therefore it has not
been possible to complete the inquiry. So far the
origin of the false reports has not been traced to any
ship.

                  AUTOMATIC RECEIVERS.

      Mr. PETO asked the First Lord of the Admiralty
whether he is aware that there is an effective
invention of Commander Hobland, of the Norwegian navy,
for automatic receivers for Marconi
apparatus-recording messages in typewriting; and
whether he has secured the right to use the invention
for the British Navy and shore stations?

      Dr. MACNAMARA: The answer is in the negative.
Many so-called automatic recorders have been invented
at one time and another and claim efficiency; but I
understand they all have, and must have under existing
conditions, the inherent defect of not being able to
distinguish between simultaneous signals on or near
the same wave length. All his Majesty's ships of any
size carry sufficient operators for continuous watch,
who receive and discriminate between simultaneous
signals in a way at present impossible for any
automatic apparatus.

      Major ARCHER-SHEE: May I ask whether the
Admiralty are not experimenting with the Polson
system, which was worked automatically before Post
Office experts in October, and at twice the rate of
the Marconi system?

      Dr. MACNAMARA: Perhaps the hon. Member will giveme notice.

      Mr. PETO: Will the hon. Gentleman watch the
report of the lecture shortly to be given at the Royal
Institution on this system?

      Dr. MACNAMARA: Certainly.

      Mr. PETO asked whether he is aware that there is
an effective invention of Commander Hobland, of the
Norwegian navy, for automatic receivers for wireless
apparatus-recording messages in type-writing; whether
he has any official information showing that the world
rights have been secured by the German Government; and
what steps he has taken or intends to take to secure
the rights to use the invention in installations on
shore in this country and the Dominions and on the
British mercantile marine?

      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: My advisers are acquainted
with a number of automatic receivers, but I have no
specific information about the particular invention
referred to by the hon. Member. I am having inquiry
made on the subject.

      TELEGRAMS FOR CANADA AND UNITED STATES.

      Sir EDWIN CORNWALL asked the Postmaster-General
whether he is prepared to arrange for the public use
of the Marconi wireless system between this country
and America?

      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: On application from t
heMarconi Company I have made arrangements to accept
from the public, on and from 1st May, at all telegraph
offices in the United Kingdom, telegrams addressed to
places in Canada and the United States for
transmission by the company's wireless Transatlantic
service. The company have notified that the full rate
for telegrams sent by their route to New York or to
Montreal will be eightpence a word, the rate for
cablegrams being one shilling a word, and that there
will be a similar reduction in the full rates for
telegrams for other parts of America. For deferred
telegrams in plain language the rate to New York will
be fourpence a word, the cablegram rate being
sixpence, with corresponding reductions for other
places.

      Mr. HARRY LAWSON: Will the Marconi Company give
any time guarantee?

      Mr. SAMUEL: Does the hon. Member mean deferred
telegrams?

      Mr. H. LAWSON: No; in regard to service- as to
the speed and transmission.

      Mr. SAMUEL: Not, so far as I am aware of.

                  ATLANTIC ROUTES.

      Mr. ROWLANDS asked whether the captains of the
Atlantic liners have a definite route laid down for
them to follow going west or east; whether any, and,
if so, what discretion is allowed to the captain for
him to judge of the necessity for deviating from the
course laid down on account of ice, fog, or any
obstruction; and whether any captains have been
censured or discharged for deviating from their
course?

      Mr. BUXTON: I understand that the routes taken
by passenger vessels across the Atlantic have been
laid down to a certain extent by the Steamship
companies. I have no doubt that the matter is one
which will be considered by the Court of Inquiry into
the loss of the steamship "Titanic."

            STEWARDS ON PASSENGER VESSELS.

      Mr. CATHCART WASON asked the President of the
Board of Trade if he will inquire from independent
sources whether stewards on passenger and tourist
ships are habitually overworked, unprovided with
sleeping accommodation, or hours for meals; and
whether, if he finds there is evidence to that effect,
he will direct the attention of the Court of Inquiry
to the danger to the public resulting from such a
state of affairs?

      Mr. BUXTON: If my hon. Friend can furnish me
with definite information showing that there are
grounds for complaints with reference to the matters
mentioned in his question, I will investigate such
complaints. Should any information placed before me
appear relevant to the investigation of the Court of
Inquiry into the loss of the "Titanic," I should not
fail to bring it to the attention of the Court.

            WRECK COMMISSIONER'S INQUIRY.

      Mr. FRED HALL (Dulwich) asked the President of
the Board of Trade whether the Court of Inquiry to be
presided over by Lord Mersey will have powers
conferred upon it to make regulations compelling
shipowners to carry sufficient boats, rafts, and
collapsible boats to accommodate the whole of the
passengers and crew; and if not, whether the Board of
Trade will immediately take steps to convene an
independent inquiry thereon?

      Mr. BUXTON: The making of the regulations as to
life-saving appliances on ships rests, under Section
427 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, with the Board
of Trade, subject that are made by the Court of
Inquiry into the loss of the "Titanic" will, of
course, receive the fullest possible consideration by
the Board of Trade. As I have already informed the
House, the whole matter is under very careful inquiry.

      Mr. F. HALL: Will it not be necessary for the
Wreck Commissioners to base their findings entirely on
the Board of Trade regulations laid down at the
present time?

      Mr. BUXTON: They have the fullest possible powers
of making any report on the matter, to which, I need
hardly say, we shall give the utmost possible
consideration.

      Mr. F. HALL: In making that report, will the
Court of Inquiry have the power to make the necessary
regulations, because unless regulations are made they
will not be binding upon the shipowners?

      Mr. BUXTON: As I have pointed out to the hon.
Member, the statutory obligation of making regulations
falls on the Board of Trade; obviously it is not a
thing for the Court of Inquiry. But any
recommendations they make will be considered most
carefully.

      Mr. F. HALL: May I take it that the Wreck
Commissioners will only be able to recommend
regulations to the Board of Trade?

      Mr. BUXTON: I have said so three times.

      Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is only asking the
same question.

      Mr. MacCALLUM SCOTT asked whether the right hon.
Gentleman can indicate on what date the investigation
into the loss of the "Titanic," by Lord Mersey's Court
of Inquiry, will open?

      Mr. BUXTON: The investigation will open on
Thursday next.

      Mr. KING asked what number of assessors will
assist the Wreck Commissioner in the "Titanic"
Inquiry; who they are; and what are their respective
capacities or qualifications?

      Mr. McKENNA: The President of the Board of Trade
has asked me to reply to this question. Five Assessors
have been appointed, as already announced in the
Press. They are as follows: Rear-Admiral Calthorpe,
formerly Captain of the fleet and Commodore First
Class on the staff of the Commander-in-Chief of the
Home Fleet; Professor Biles, Professor of Naval
Architecture at Glasgow; Captain A. W. Clarke, Elder
Brother of the Trinity House; Commander Lyon, formerly
a captain in the Peninsular and Oriental Steamship
Company; and Mr. Chaston, who is a marine engineer of
Newcastle.

      Mr. CROOKS: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman
how it is, after the approval of the House, there is
no assessor representing the travelling public?

      Mr. McKENNA: The assessors act in a judicial
capacity, or, rather, they advise the judge, and their
office is one requiring expert knowledge; they do not
sit in any sense in a representative capacity.

      Mr. CROOKS: Surely a man who has practical
knowledge from the labour point of view would be a
helpful assessor, and the man who has taken part as a
passenger would also be very helpful as an assessor.
Why are these two excluded?

      Mr. McKENNA: My hon. Friend, if he will
forgiv me for saying so, is rather mixing up the proper
subject for evidence with the proper subjects to be
advised upon by expert advisers, who are called
assessors. No doubt passengers and persons
representative from the labour point of view will be
called as witnesses.

      Mr. CROOKS: Why not have them as assessors?

      Mr. WEDGEWOOD: Can the right hon. Gentleman give
the House the exact question which is remitted to this
judicial tribunal for decision?

      Mr. SPEAKER: That question does not arise out of
the answer.

      Mr. KING: Is it in the power of the Home
Secretary to add further assessors, and can he do so
even while the inquiry is proceeding?

      Mr. McKENNA: Yes, Sir, I could, certainly; but I
could only add assessors of the same kind as those
prescibed by Statutory Rules, and they do not provide
for appointing assessors of a representative
character.

      Mr. WEDGEWOOD: Could you have an assessor
connected with the Seamen's and Firemen's Union?

      Mr. McKENNA: No, Sir.

      Mr. MARTIN: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman
if he would appoint a special counsel to represent the
passengers and labour people in connection with this
inquiry?

      Mr. McKENNA: I understand from my right hon.
Friend that full opportunity will be given to counsel
to appear.

      Mr. MARTIN: Will the Government pay them?

      Mr. C. BATHURST: Arising out of the original
answer, does not the right hon. Gentleman think the
association of Professor Biles with work of
construction on behalf of Messrs. Harland and Woolff
places him in a somewhat difficult position as a
member of this Inquiry?

      Mr. McKENNA: I am not aware that Professor Biles
has been associated with Messrs. Harland and Woolff,
but, if that is so, I should think it would be
difficult to find any well-known expert who had not in
some way or other been associated with that firm.

      Mr. BUXTON: In answer to my hon. Friend, I did
give him an answer the other day, but I would be glad
if he would give me notice.

      Mr. JOHN WARD rose-

      Mr. SPEAKER: I think hon. Members had better put
down any further questions.

                  MANNING BOATS.
      Mr. FRED HALL (Dulwich) asked the President of
the Board of Trade whether, in the event of
Regulations being made to increase the boats and other
life-saving apparatus, he will consider the necessity
for increasing the number of deck hands in order that
there may be sufficient competent seamen for manning
such boats?

      Mr. BUXTON: The question of the number of
competent hands available for launching and manning
the boats on passenger steamers in an emergency has
obviously an important bearing on the question of
increasing the number of boats, and it will certainly
be very carefully considered by me in connection
therewith.

            INCREASED LIFE-BOAT ACCOMODATION.

      Sir GILBERT PARKER asked the names of the
steamship companies which have agreed to increase the
lifeboat accomodation to the full number of passengers
carried; and if communications to this effect have
been made by the steamship companies to the Board of
Trade?

      Mr. BUXTON: I stated last Tuesday, in reply to a
question by the hon. Member for Blackburn, the names
of the passenger steamship companies which had then
informed the Board of Trade of their intentions to
provide their vessels with boats and rafts sufficient
to accommodate all persons on board, as soon as the
necessary boats are obtainable. Since then one or two
other companies have informed to the same effect, and
I am in communication with others. The names of the
companies who have so informed me are are as follows:
The Allan, American, Anchor Line, Atlantic Transport,
British India, Bucknalls, Canadian Pacific, Cunard,
Dominion, Federal Steam Navigation company, Lamport
and Holt, Leyland , New Zealand Shipping Company, P.
and O., pacific Steam Navigation company, Orient, Red
Star, Royal Mail, Royal Line, Shaw Savill and albion,
Thompson's Aberdeen Line, Union Castle, and White
Star. Some of these lines already provide accommodation
for all on board. The companies above-named include 95
per cent. of the number of passenger vessels of 10,000
tons gross and upwards.

      Mr. DOUGLASS HALL (Isle of Wight): Has the right
hon. Gentleman received any communication from the
Bibby Line?

      Mr. BUXTON: I think not: it is not in the list I
read out. Perhaps I should explain: the conference to
which reference was made was only held at very short
notice. Some of the lines did not receive intimation
of it; some others communicated with me independently.
I do not think the Bibby Line is on the list, and
therefore I do not think they communicated with me.

       UNITED STATES AUTHORITIES AND BOARD
             OF TRADE REGULATIONS.

      Sir GILBERT PARKER asked whether the Board of
Trade Regulations governing lifeboat accommodation and
life-saving appliances and Board of Trade inspection
have been been accepted hitherto by the United States
authorities as sufficient for their own harbour
waters?

      Mr. BUXTON: British passenger steamers complying
with the Board of Trade Regulations as to lifesaving
appliances and other matters, and holding passenger
certificates attesting this compliance, are not
subject to inspection in United States waters except
as may be necessary to satisfy the local inspectors
that the condition of the vessel, her boilers and
life-saving equipments is as stated in the
certificate.

            CHILDREN IN STEERAGE.

      Mr. WEDGWOOD asked whether the proposed British
inquiry into the "Titanic" disaster will be able to
inquire into the reason why the majority of the
children in the steerage were drowned, while they were
able to save those in the first and second class, and
why the half-filled boats did no return to pick up the
drowning as soon as the vessel sank?

      MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE: Before this question
is answered may I ask whether it is in order to put it
as the matter is sub judice?

      Mr. BUXTON: I did not take it there is anything
underlying this question. The answer is certainly.

            EXCURSION STEAMERS.

      Mr. BOTTOMLEY asked whether at this time of the
year the owners of excursion steamers apply for their
passenger certificates; and whether, before granting
the same, he will require an undertaking for lifeboat
accommodation sufficient to carry the authorised number
of passengers and crew?

      Mr. BUXTON: The board of Trade cannot require as
the condition of granting a passenger certificate that
a steamer should comply with conditions in excess of
those laid down in the Merchant Shipping Acts or in
the statutory rules or regulations thereunder, and in
such a case the owner of the vessel could appeal to a
Court of Survey. The revision of the rules applicable
to the class of vessels referred to in the question
are under careful consideration.

            MERCHANT VESSEL'S EQUIPMENT.

      Major WHITE asked whether the life-saving
appliances and navigational equipment of merchant
vessels are frequently left to the inspection of Board
of Trade Surveyors of Ships, who are either nautical,
engineer, or ship surveyors. The two former classes of
surveyors have had practical experience at sea, and
all Board of Trade Surveyors receive a course of
training in their duties before they are entrusted
with the inspection of the life-saving appliances,
lights, fog-signals, etc., of vessels.

      Mr. KELLAWAY: May I ask my right hon. Friend
whether an Inspector from the Board of Trade inspected
the collapsible boats on the "Olympic"?

      Mr. BUXTON: The boats mentioned were in excess;
they were inspected, I understand, by a superintendant
at Southampton.

      Mr. PETO: Are there not also engineer surveyors,
and do I understand the engineer surveyors did not
have anything to do with the inspection of the
navigational equipment of the ship?

      Mr. BUXTON: I think there is a question about
that later. If not, then perhaps the hon. Member will
give me notice.

            NAVIGATING OFFICERS.

      Major WHITE asked how many navigating officers,
exclusive of the captain, were carried in the
"Titanic"; what system of officers' watches were
carried out on board of her; and whether the Board of
Trade compel ships to carry navigating officers in
some proportion to their tonnage and passenger carrying
capacity?

      Mr. BUXTON: Seven navigating officers, exclusive
of the master, were carried on the "Titanic." I am not
able to state what system of watches was adopted. But
this question is one within the scope of the Board of
Inquiry. The Merchant Shipping Acts require that every
foreign going ship and every home trade passenger ship
other than a very small vessel shall carry a
certificated master and a certificated mate. If a
foreign going ship carries more than one mate, at
least the first and second mates must be certificated.

      Mr. PETO: Is there any Board of Trade Regulation
that goes beyond Section 92 of the merchant Shipping
Act?

      Mr. BUXTON: I do not like to answer these rather
technical questions off hand.

      MERCHANT SHIPPING ADVISORY COMMITTEE.

      Major WHITE asked (1) whether, on the
appointment of the Merchant Shipping Advisory
Committee in 1906, the then President of the Board of
Trade enjoined strict privacy in connection with the
proceedings of this Committee; whether, having
published the Report as to boat capacity on board ship
of the Sub-committee of the Merchant Shipping Advisory
Committee, he will now publish the whole of the
correspondence which passed between the Board of Trade
and the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee and which
led up to the appointment of this Sub-committee; and
whether he will also publish a full Report of the
proceedings of the Sub-committee previous to their
drafting their Report?

      Mr. PETO asked (2) as the question of
life-saving equipment on board merchant ships has once
again been remitted by him to the Merchant Shipping
Advisory Committee, whether he will abandon the
privacy of the proceedings of this Committee and throw
them open to the Press and the public?

      Mr. BUXTON: The proceedings of the Merchant
Shipping Advisory Committee have always been private,
like those of other Advisory Committees appointed by
the Board of Trade. Reports summarising the work of
the Committee are published from time to time, but I
consider that it would be contrary to the public
interest, and detrimental to the future usefulness of
the Committees, if its proceedings and those of its
Sub-committees, and correspondence which take place
between the Committee and the Board of Trade are
published. I take this oppurtunity, by the indulgence
of the House, to correct a misapprehension which
appears to have arisen out of a recent statement of
mine to the House. In stating that the Board of Trade
were not satisfied certain provisions recommended by
the Committee were altogether adequate, I had no
intentions of depreciating in any way the value of the
Committee's Report. My sole intention was to explain
that what otherwise might have appeared to be an
unwarranted delay on the part of the Board of Trade in
giving effect to the Committee's recommendations,
sprang from the desire to make further experiments and
tests, especially with regard to the best form and
type of boats designed, to ascertain whether it would
not be practicable to go a step further.
      I fully recognise that when all this took place
both the Committee and the Board of Trade  advisers
were basing their views as to life-saving equipment on
principles which, though generally accepted up to the
present by the best expert autorities, have now been
called in question by the recent disaster. As the
House is aware, the whole question is now being
reviewed in the light of the new situation. I have
every confidence in the Merchant Shipping Advisory
Committee as adequately fulfilling the object which
Parliament intended it to serve- namely, to give the
Board of Trade the great advantage of the knowledge
and counsel of persons and bodies specially conservant
with maritime questions, without, of course, in any
way diminishing the responsibility of the Board of
Trade themselves to safeguard the public interest. As
I attach great value to the services of the Committee
I should greatly regret if any words of mine had
inadvertently suggested any lack of appreciation of
its work.

      Sir C. KINLOCH-COOKE: Will the Inquiry into the
"Titanic" disaster be a public Inquiry?

      Mr. BUXTON: Certainly, the Inquiry will be
public.

      Mr. PETO: Does the right hon. Gentleman think it
fair to the Advisory Committee to publish only such
portions of their Report as the Board of Trade think
fit?

      Mr. BUXTON: The particular Report published was
one very germane to the present circumstances, and it
was published with the assent of the chairman. I
thought the house would desire it to be published as
it was under the exceptional circumstances.

      Mr. DOUGLAS HALL (Isle of Wight): Is it not a
fact that the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee is
entirely composed of persons whose business it is to
make money out of the conveyance of passengers and
cargo?

      Mr. BUXTON: I think that is a very unwarrantable
aspersion on the members of the Advisory Committee. If
the hon. Member will refer to the names of the
Advisory Committee, which were circulated with the
Votes a few days ago, he will see there is no
foundation whatever for the statement or imputation he
makes.

      INCREASED TONNAGE OF BRITISH LINERS.

      Mr. CROFT asked the right hon. Gentleman what
was the tonnage and passenger accommodation of the
biggest British ocean-going liner in 1905; what is the
corresponding tonnage and accommodation of the biggest
ship to-day; and whether the Board of Trade has from
time to time increased the regulation number of boats
comparatively with the increase in the number of
passengers carried?

      Mr. BUXTON: The tonnage of the largest British
ocean-going liner in 1905 was 23,875 tons gross, and
the number of passengers allowed to be carried under
the vessel's passenger certificate was 2,041. The
corresponding figures at the present time are 45,325
tons and 2,524 passengers. The hon. Member will see
that, although the tonnage has nearly doubled, the
increase in the number of passengers is only 24 per
cent. The minimum requirements as to boat accommodation
in the largest passenger steamers were not altered
during the period referred to in the question.
                  NAUTICAL SURVEYORS.

      Major ARCER-SHEE asked if the right hon.
gentleman will state what qualifications are demanded
on appointment of nautical engineer and shipwright
surveyors to the Board of Trade; how many nautical
surveyors are employed in the Marine Department of the
Board of Trade; how many inspections of the life
saving and navigational equipments of merchant ships
were made during the year 1911; and what proportion
that bears to the total number of ships of over 200
tons nett register flying the British flag?

      Mr. BUXTON: The qualifications demanded on
appointment of nautical surveyors to the Board of
Trade are that they must possess a foreign-going
master's or extra master's certificate  of competency,
and must have been in command of foreign-going
steamships. An engineer survryor must have served an
apprentice-ship to a firm of engineers or iron or
steel shipbuilders, must have served at sea as an
engineer on regular watch in charge of engines for at
least five years, and must possess a first-class or
extra first-class certificate of competancy as a sea
going engineer. A ship surveyor must have been trained
as a shipwright for not less than five years, and
subsequently had practical experience in the building
and repairing of ships. All candidates appointed must
pass a satisfactory competitive technical examination,
and are certificated by the Civil Service
Commissioners. Surveyors, after appointment undergo a
course of training in all their duties, and have to
pass a further technical examination before they
survey and inspect vessels on their own
responsibility. There are six-teen nautical surveyors
and four principal district nautical officers employed
in connection with survey duties in the Marine
Department of the Board of Trade. This does not
include engineer or ship surveyors, who number
eighty-five and thirty-four respectively. I regret that
I cannot at the moment give the statistics desired by
the hon. Member, but I will inquire whether it is
possible to obtain them, and, if so, they shall be
communicated to him.

      Major ARCHER-SHEE: Does the right hon. Gentleman
consider that even sixteen nautical surveyors are
enough to inspect 7,000 steamers with an aggregate
tonnage of 17,000,000?

      Mr. BUXTON: That question will also be
considered.

      Mr. PETO asked whether those merchant captains
and officers who are candidates for nautical
appointments under the Board of Trade are requested to
state whether they have ever been censured or their
certificates temporarily suspended at Board of Trade
inquiries into shipping casualties?

      Mr. BUXTON: Candidates for the post of nautical
surveyor are asked when they are interviewed whether
their certificates have ever been dealt with. They are
also required in their form of application for
appointment to state in writing what casualties they
have met and whether their certificates have been
dealt with.

      Mr. PETO: In the case of any candidate for
appointment as nautical surveyor, if there has been
anything against his certificate, is that always a bar
to his appointment?

      Mr. BUXTON: Not at all. It depends enitrely upon
the nature of it.

            LORD CHANCELLOR'S RULES.

      Mr. MARTIN asked the President of the Board of
Trade whether Rules have been made by the Lord
Chancellor, under Section 479 of the Merchant Shipping
Act, as to investigations with regard to shipping
casualties, and, if so, when; and will he issue a
White Paper containing these rules?

      Mr. BUXTON: General Rules for Formal
Investigation into Shipping casualties, and appeals
and Rehearings were made by the Lord Chancellor on
22nd November, 1907. The Rules are published by the
Stationary Office, and I am sending a copy to my hon.
Friend.

            PASSENGER ACCOMMODATION.

Sir GILBERT PARKER asked if the right hon. Gentleman
will state what proportion of the total accommodation
for first and second class passengers, respectively,
on the cross-Channel steamers is either below deck or
under shelter?

      Mr. BUXTON: I am afraid that I have not the
information asked for in the hon. Member's question.

      Mr. KING: Does this question refer to the Irish
Channel or the English Channel? [An Hon. Member:
"Both."]

      Sir GILBERT PARKER: Is there no information in
the Department which would enable the right hon.
Gentleman to answer this question?

      Mr. BUXTON: I do not quite understand what
information the hon. Member requires.

      Sir GILBERT PARKER asked whether the right hon.
Gentleman will give the basis of measurement for
passenger accommodation in the Cross-channel steamers;
and what is the measurement of space alloted to each
passenger?

      Mr. BUXYON: The basis for determining the number
of passengers allowed on cross-channel steamers is, in
the case of passengers accommodated in spaces fitted
for sleeping, the number of berths or sofa-berths
provided subject to each person having at least 72
cubic feet of space. In the case of passengers
accomodated in other spaces, or on deck, the basis for
determining the number is the amount of clear
superficial area available, and in this case the
measurement is at the rate of one passenger for each
nine square feet of such area.

            THIRD-CLASS PASSENGERS SAVED.

      Mr. KELLAWAY asked if the right hon. Gentleman
has received from the owners of the "Titanic" any
explanation of the small percentage of women and
children saved amongst the third-class passengers?

      Mr. BUXTON: This is a question for the Court of
Inquiry.

            PASSENGER LOSSES (ATLANTIC).

      Mr. FELL asked how many passengers crossed the
Atlantic between the United Kingdom and the United
States and Canada in the ten years ending 31st
December, 1911, and the number of lives that were lost
among such passengers except from natural causes; and
what percentage such loss bears to the number of
passengers?

      Mr. BUXTON: The total number of passengers of
all classes and all nationalities carried outward and
inward on board British and foreign ships between the
United Kingdom and the United States and Canada
(including Newfoundland) during the ten years ending
31st December, 1911, was 6,053,382, of which the great
proportion were carried in United Kingdom ships. The
number of passengers reported to the Board of Trade as
having lost their lives by casualties to vessels
belonging to the United Kingdom (I can-not give those
on other ships) on voyage between the United Kingdom
and the United States and Canada during the period
named was nine.

                  STEAMSHIP "OLYMPIC."

      Mr. W. THORNE: May I ask the Post-master-General
a question, of which I have given private notice-
whether the owners of the White Star Line have asked
the Postmaster-General to assist the prosecutions of
sailors who refused to sail on the steamship "Olympic"
owing to a dispute as to the inadequancy of the boats
and other life-saving appliances, and the consequent
engagement of unqualified men as fire-men; and if such
application was made, what answer has been given?

      Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL: I have received a telegram
requesting official support to the pending
prosecutions. No reply has been sent. As at present
advised, I do not see that I have any locus standi in
the matter.

      Mr. LANSBURY: May I ask the President of the
Board of Trade a question, of which i have given
private notice, whether the owners of the White Star
Line have asked the Board of Trade to assist the
prosecution of sailors who refused to sail on the
steamship "Olympic" owing to a dispute as to the
adequacy of the boats and life-saving appliances, and
the consequent engagement of unqualified men as
fire-men, and if such application has been made, what
answer has been given by the Board of Trade, and,
further, if seamen and firemen are by law compelled to
serve upon ships which are insufficiently and
inadequately supplied with boats or with men who are
considered to be incompetant?

      Mr. BUXTON: I have only just now received the
hon. Member's question.

      Mr. LANSBURY: I posted it on Saturday.

      Mr. BUXTON: There has been some mistake. Perhaps
the hon. Member will kindly give notice for to-morrow.
I would rather not answer without consideration.

            DETENTION OF "TITANIC" CREW
                  AT PLYMOUTH.

      Earl WINTERTON asked the President of the Board
of Trade who was responsible for sending the
instructions from the Board of Trade to detain against
their will and without a warrant the members of the
crew of the "Titanic," who arrived at Plymouth on
Saturday, and what offence, if any, is alleged against
these men?
      Mr. BUXTON: There is, of course, no question of
any allegation of any offence against the survivors of
the crew of the "Titanic," who arrived at Plymouth by
the "Lapland" yesterday. Under the provisions of
Section 465 of the Mercahnt Shipping Act, 1894, the
Receiver of wreck has power to hold a pleminary
inquiry respecting the casualty, and to examine them
for the purposes of the court and administer oaths.
This course was taken to prevent any delay in getting
the evidence of these witnesses for the Court of
Inquiry, and with the same object, premises were found
near to the place of landing for taking the
depositions there, and who desired to proceed
elsewhere, and to get the names and addresses of those
leaving so that arrangements could be made for taking
their depositions later.

      Mr. W. THORNE: Will the men in question be
compensated for being kept back?

      Mr. BUXTON: As I said in the debate on the
motion for the Adjournement last week, it is within
the power of the Board of Trade to give sustentation
allowance in such cases where the persons themselves
require it, and certainly it will be done in this
case.